Is an HD tv actually better to play shooting games on???

[N8 BIZ]

Basically I have two questions that I need answered and I figured that someone who goes through these forums could help me.

1.) I have an Elite Xbox 360 and I want an HD tv, but is it even worth it if I play shooting games competitively? I heard that the way the image is projected onto the screen that it is slower is that true also?

2.) What kind of tv's do they use at MLG events and where could I purchase one?

[IxCoLd]

Samsung TXN2036F - discontinued
Samsung TXR2035
Philips 20PT6441

hdtv-
Envision L20W421

[MrCrowley]

Go to my BLOG and read my write up about HDTV lag. Simply put if the output resolution of your xbox 360 matches the pixels on the TV you will be fine. If the TV has to proccess the signal there will be a slight delay. Almost Unoticable. Some TV's circutry is worse than others......but that is no different from any other normal NON HDTV.

P.S. For gaming try to stay away from LCD if you can. OR pay close attension to the Response time rating. 8ms or lower should be fine.

[slayer04model]

I use HDMI, I haven't noticed any lag when playing.

[eVasivE]

it's better in the sense that things are more clear(and usually bigger) on an hdtv. I played the beta in 1080p on a samsung lcd and it was amazing with NO lag. It shat on my 20 inch crt in terms of clarity and overall gaming experience. Response time to the lcd is 8ms, I also used the tv's 'game mode' to enhance response time etc.

[skyL193]

Mostly, it comes down to response time. I bought a 42 inch HDTV about 3 weeks ago and have had no problems with it (Yes it was an LCD. Toshiba 42HL167 to be exact.) However, the thing with that tv is, that it is built with a special setting called, "Game Mode" Which reduces the normal 8ms response time down to 2-3ms.

Generically, Response times go, 12ms > is easily noticeable (for the generic gamer). 8ms < is minutely noticeable (for the competitive gamer), and 4ms < Not noticeable at all.

Another thing to look at when playing on an HDTV is Contrast ratio. Your not going to want a tv (to play OR watch) that has a contrast ration lower then 1000:1 ESPECIALLY when playing a game that depends on quick reaction and sighting certain things (eg the Halo's, lots of other Shooters). The TV I have has a 2000:1 True contrast ratio, and a 10 000:1 Dynamic contrast ratio. However, in terms of gaming, your going to want to look at True contrast ratios.

Basically, response time, and contrast ratio determine how your gaming experience will go with HDTV's (especially when concerning LCD Sets)

[syph3r]

some ppl cant feel it but some ppl wiht lik really good reaction time can feel the lag cause the CRT tvs ar made so taht the images come out fluid but in HDTV there is a slight lag cause the TV takes every frame and makes it picture quality. in the case of MLG tv the Envision has a 8 ms(milisecond) time of lag

[iSeven]

yes.

[LowFatmilk]

the screen lag of HD tvs is more of a thing of the past. almost all of the newer sets don't have a problem with it. I have a 32" samsung LCD and it's amazing, would definitely recommend one.

[TWISTED-BULLET]

So far HDTV's have not been the displays that you'd want to play competitive FPS games on, but thansk to technology improving, LCD's mainly, you can now play competitive games on these tv's. The bigget issue HDTV's have is response time, response time is the time it takes for changes from a source to be displayed on the tv. The best way to give an example of this is lip sync, old HDTV's and even some new can have visable lip sync errors, where you here somebody speaking and you hear the sound before you see there lips move on the screen.

As you may have seen, MLG now use an LCD 20 inch tv from Envision, These tv's have a response time of 8 ms, this response time is pretty mcuh the golden standard to play games in high resolution and have the ability to play games competitively.

Another good example of LAG time or response is, if you have 8 ms response over say 75 ms response in a n Xbox Live halo 2 game, imagine playing halo 2 at 8 ms ping; which is basically in LAN range or 75 ms ping which is more of an online range. The higher the latency the higher response time, and it's the same for HDTV's and response time, the lower ms value; the less LAG time a video game player has.

Here's a link to Envisions product website, gives a list of there tv's and sizes, and the always go into detail to explain the response time. You'll notice that the new HDMI tv's have an even lower response time, 5ms, this is more than likely due to the fact that you are using a digistal input and there's no need to use analogue to digital conversion. HDMI will offer the greatest results in picture due to no conversion. http://www.envisiondisplay.com/products.asp?EPage=products


I'm probably going to buy 2 HDTV's this christmas so I also have had to do alot of research on this subject.

Envision aren't the only tv company to make LCD's with great response, I believe Sharp have a great line up of 16 ms, and 8 ms response time tv's out right now, so just look around, and remember that response time is the most important thing when buying a gaming HDTV, the lower the ms vaule; the better it will be for competitive play.

[BLiTZ]

Okay I read all this and have been trying to find a really solid HDTV around 20 inches or so. Since all of this info makes my head hurt and I don't get it all, can someone just link a really badass low-MS 20 inch tv? Is what MLG currently uses good, or is it just cheap since they have to buy a lot? I can look up the MLG one if it's good.

http://www.envisiondisplay.com/products.asp?EPage=products&SMenu=h1981
That looks really nice from the link posted. Thoughts? Are there better for gaming?

[TWISTED-BULLET]

Okay I read all this and have been trying to find a really solid HDTV around 20 inches or so. Since all of this info makes my head hurt and I don't get it all, can someone just link a really badass low-MS 20 inch tv? Is what MLG currently uses good, or is it just cheap since they have to buy a lot? I can look up the MLG one if it's good.

http://www.envisiondisplay.com/products.asp?EPage=products&SMenu=h1981
That looks really nice from the link posted. Thoughts? Are there better for gaming?


http://www.envisiondisplay.com/products.asp?EPage=products&SMenu=l20w421

[N8 BIZ]

Hey I really appreciate anyone who responded to my cry for help. Thanks so much guys or girls.

[RoMMaf1a]

Hey I really appreciate anyone who responded to my cry for help. Thanks so much guys or girls.


This is a quote straight out of CNET to gove you some backround info and sway ure decision.

LCD (technology, top products): If you're a hard-core gamer, LCD is probably the best all-around choice. LCD panels typically have 1,366x768 resolution, and many of the newer, more expensive ones are 1,920x1,080 (or 1080p), which really shows off the high resolution of HDTV-enabled games and consoles. If you tend to play in large groups, with players seated on the edge of the sofa, for example, the tendency of most LCDs to wash out or discolor from a side angle may be an issue.

Plasma (technology, top products): Plasmas make great gaming displays as long as you're aware of the possibility of image retention. In other words, don't leave the game paused for hours without a screensaver. At large sizes, plasmas cost less than LCDs. Off-angle performance is not an issue with plasmas, but they do reflect more ambient room light than LCDs, so if you play in a room with a lot of windows or other light sources, reflections might be a problem.

Rear-projection (technology, top products): Whether DLP, LCD, or LCoS, the rear-projection HDTVs also make excellent gaming displays. Their big screens are perfect for really getting into play, and the sharp pictures of these microdisplays really show off high-res games. If you spend a ridiculous amount of time gaming, you might want a flat panel, however, because you'll typically have to replace the bulbs on most microdisplays after 3,000 to 5,000 hours.

Here is a Tope 5 List of the top gaming HDtvs Hope this helps

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127742-page,1/article.html

[HiPPOO]

I played Halo 2 on an HDTV and it was one of the worst experiences ive had. There was a lot of noticeable lag that was so hard to compensate for.

[Kcub07]

Samsung TXN2036F - discontinued
Samsung TXR2035
Philips 20PT6441

hdtv-
Envision L20W421

Lol, this guy has the best sig I've ever seen.

[Sgt Executioner]

Basically I have two questions that I need answered and I figured that someone who goes through these forums could help me.

1.) I have an Elite Xbox 360 and I want an HD tv, but is it even worth it if I play shooting games competitively? I heard that the way the image is projected onto the screen that it is slower is that true also?

2.) What kind of tv's do they use at MLG events and where could I purchase one? Ok I will help you out I game with this television and it is perfect I also am a competitive gamer every little aspect and detail counts here is the link (http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1814,00.html)

Frame Rate Conversion: 120 Hz (fastest avalible on the market)
Contrst Ration: 15,000:1 (average LCD or plasma is under 5000:1, and trust me the diffrence is massive)

[uncle___mlg_]

Is MLG going to buy new tv's for halo 3? Thanks for any info

[Sabbathkicksass]

Is MLG going to buy new tv's for halo 3? Thanks for any info

probably not, most likely just use the ones they use for rainbow six

[TWISTED-BULLET]

Ok I will help you out I game with this television and it is perfect I also am a competitive gamer every little aspect and detail counts here is the link (http://www.sharpusa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,1814,00.html)

Frame Rate Conversion: 120 Hz (fastest avalible on the market)
Contrst Ration: 15,000:1 (average LCD or plasma is under 5000:1, and trust me the diffrence is massive)


Whats the response time on that LCD? 120 Hz is refresh rate, I don't think response time and refresh rate are related.

Scratch that, WOW, this tv has 4ms response time, this tv would be amazing for halo 3 with a HDMI 360. WOW, I am impressed by the specs on this tv.

[WMDistraction]

Whats the response time on that LCD? 120 Hz is refresh rate, I don't think response time and refresh rate are related.
Response is measured in ms.

[TWISTED-BULLET]

Response is measured in ms.


I know.

[fabdub]

do like me..
buy a crt hdtv ...
i have a panasonic 34" widescreen hdtv ...
it has many component inputs and HDMI as well ...
crt kicks lcd n plasma's asses .. only smaller :D

[Bonesaw]

DON'T BUY A TV JUST BECAUSE IT HAS A LOW REPONSE TIME.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

Input lag is what we feel when an HDTV is "bad". At this time there isn't a measurable number that is given in the specs that will tell you if it's going to lag or not.

A TV with 2ms response time may be the laggiest tv you've ever played on... there just wouldn't be color smearing or ghosting.

A TV with 18ms response may get smudgy when things are changing rapidly, but it may also respond immediatly to your joysticks.

Just bring your xbox into the store and test test test.

[MikeMan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

[Hitzel_89]

I don't like playing on an HDTV because autoaim feels differently in HD.

On a normal TV, the autoaim feels helpful because it's helping me aim at the pixels I can't see easily. But on an HDTV, I can see everything clearly so I don't need it. I only feel it when it's pulling my reticle away form the shot I wanna take.

[kirbana]

is it different for an HDTV with HDMI cables though? because I have a xbox 360 elite and I was looking for a good TV to get

[Bonesaw]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

You posted the link that I posted directly above? =P

[MikeMan]

You posted the link that I posted directly above? =P

Just noticed that. I had seen so many posts about response time that I just decided to go ahead and post that. I just had to return a 8ms LCD because the 'input lag' was over 40ms. To think Samsung advertised that TV as being outstanding for "fast-paced video games", ugh that pissed me off.

[r6god]

at mlg they use small tv's. for halo 2 they arent even hd. But for the other games they r LG's and LIKE this othter one thats teh same size. My guess around 18 inchess wide

[TWISTED-BULLET]

Just noticed that. I had seen so many posts about response time that I just decided to go ahead and post that. I just had to return a 8ms LCD because the 'input lag' was over 40ms. To think Samsung advertised that TV as being outstanding for "fast-paced video games", ugh that pissed me off.


Really? What was the model number? Do you know? I'd just like to do some research, I hope Samsung don't actually advertise the tv as 8 ms response when it isn't.
I have a feeling I know what is happening, there measuring the response time via the HDMI input, with HDMI the tv isn't using any analogue to digital conversion, eliminating the time it takes to convert the signal through thiis process.

I only say this because I noticed an improvement on my Toshiba DLP using HDMI on my PS3.

[MikeMan]

Really? What was the model number? Do you know? I'd just like to do some research, I hope Samsung don't actually advertise the tv as 8 ms response when it isn't.
I have a feeling I know what is happening, there measuring the response time via the HDMI input, with HDMI the tv isn't using any analogue to digital conversion, eliminating the time it takes to convert the signal through thiis process.

I only say this because I noticed an improvement on my Toshiba DLP using HDMI on my PS3.

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=televisions&type=televisions&subtype=lcdtv&model_cd=LNT1953HX/XAA

I don't have an HDMI 360, but I tried using all of the HD resolutions it supported and it was pinging very noticeably.

It's weird because the TV I have now is a 20" LCD from Olevia that's advertised at 12ms and I use it the same way but the lag is negligible. I could definitely feel the lag on the Samsung, and in fact used GH2 to measure it at about 40-45ms.

...and yes I used gaming mode, if anything it may have made it worse.

[MrCrowley]

LOL, this is rediculous. Just read my blog kids.

Plasma doesn't even have a response time measurement because it doesn't need one. Plasma is the best if you can afford it. Plasma does NOT suffer from burn in like it used to (Stationary things like the ammo in your hud). The picture quality of a plasma is better then most LCD's. The refresh rate of a plasma is higher than Halo 3's frame rate.

LCD has a slower response time than any other type of monitor. (LCD's have been getting better but still need a response time measurement). LCD's lag is a bit different too. The problem is that is takes a split second to change the color of the pixel. So when you are spining it the whole picture blurs while all the pixels are trying to change colors quickly....(Not lag but still annoying).

The thing that makes LAG is video conversion. i.e. the old Xbox only puts out 480p and most HDTV'ss needed to convert that Standard Definition signal to an HD resolution (1080p, 1080i, 720p) to show it properly.

The Xbox 360 does the conversion before it even goes to your TV. So in most cases your TV will not have to do much processing to the signal. As long as you set your Xbox output resolution to the same resolution as the native resolution on your TV you will be fine. Most HDTV's will work fine with the Xbox 360.

Try to avoid cheap LCD's!

[MikeMan]

LOL, this is rediculous. Just read my blog kids.

Plasma doesn't even have a response time measurement because it doesn't need one. Plasma is the best if you can afford it. Plasma does NOT suffer from burn in like it used to (Stationary things like the ammo in your hud). The picture quality of a plasma is better then most LCD's. The refresh rate of a plasma is higher than Halo 3's frame rate.

LCD has a slower response time than any other type of monitor. (LCD's have been getting better but still need a response time measurement). LCD's lag is a bit different too. The problem is that is takes a split second to change the color of the pixel. So when you are spining it the whole picture blurs while all the pixels are trying to change colors quickly....(Not lag but still annoying).

The thing that makes LAG is video conversion. i.e. the old Xbox only puts out 480p and most HDTV'ss needed to convert that Standard Definition signal to an HD resolution (1080p, 1080i, 720p) to show it properly.

The Xbox 360 does the conversion before it even goes to your TV. So in most cases your TV will not have to do much processing to the signal. As long as you set your Xbox output resolution to the same resolution as the native resolution on your TV you will be fine. Most HDTV's will work fine with the Xbox 360.

Try to avoid cheap LCD's!

That doesn't help most people at all.

The smallest Plasma TV Best Buy sells is 42" and the cheapest is $800. The smallest Plasma Circuit City sells is 42" and costs $800 as well.

Plasma is not feasible for almost all of us, because they are too large for our bedrooms and carry huge price tags. I guess most of us will have to settle for "cheap LCD's".

[IxBulletProofxI]

I play on a 16 ms tv. KMS

[WaRRioR2050]

I play on a 16 ms tv. KMS

I just looked up my TV's specs and so do I... I haven't really noticed it though, maybe I just got use to it?

[[[_BiZZaR3_]]]

I was thining this tv:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10084227&catid=

with this cable:

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802129

2ms and the cable supports up top 1080i and in the reviews in the tv it said xbox360 was played at 720p but while using a ps3 the monitor was at 1080p as the ps3 uses a different cable. Would this be considered a cheap LCD? i see it as not being cheap for what it is as it is 300 a 20 LCD TV would be 500. How ever this monitor has NO cable input and NO speakers built in thats why i see the price being set at what it is, and TWISTED-BULLET could you tell me what you think in these products?

[iHandicap]

From the experience I've had with HDTV's, there is noticeable delay with every shot. Due to that, I just use a cheap 20" flat screen, its nothing special but you save some money and it gets the job done.

[MikeMan]

]']I was thining this tv:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10084227&catid=

with this cable:

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802129

2ms and the cable supports up top 1080i and in the reviews in the tv it said xbox360 was played at 720p but while using a ps3 the monitor was at 1080p as the ps3 uses a different cable. Would this be considered a cheap LCD? i see it as not being cheap for what it is as it is 300 a 20 LCD TV would be 500. How ever this monitor has NO cable input and NO speakers built in thats why i see the price being set at what it is, and TWISTED-BULLET could you tell me what you think in these products?

2ms is the response time, remember they don't advertise input lag. Go ahead and try it, but make sure you can get a refund and be able to send it back if the input lag is bad. My experience with Samsung LCD's hasn't been good.

[PH Token]

]']I was thining this tv:

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&sku_id=0665000FS10084227&catid=

with this cable:

http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802129

2ms and the cable supports up top 1080i and in the reviews in the tv it said xbox360 was played at 720p but while using a ps3 the monitor was at 1080p as the ps3 uses a different cable. Would this be considered a cheap LCD? i see it as not being cheap for what it is as it is 300 a 20 LCD TV would be 500. How ever this monitor has NO cable input and NO speakers built in thats why i see the price being set at what it is, and TWISTED-BULLET could you tell me what you think in these products?
That monitor is great i have it the only problem is its not a tv so it would only have to be for gaming unless you get a reciever and it stretches any picture you play on it but the stretch isn't noticable unless its a big circle. Like in shadow run the actual retucul wouldn't seem stretched but when you zoom in and look at the big circle that represents the scope i guess you can see a slight oval shape but it doesn't bother me. Just don't play H2 on it then its horrible but for any 360 game i've played its amazing.

[[[_BiZZaR3_]]]

This is in the forum sub section entitled halo 3 so it is for HALO 3 and this monitor would be game only

[Mayonayze]

i go with the poster who recommended HD CRT (non-RP). you just cant go wrong with a good old cathode ray tube for gaming. there are some great HD flat panel sets out there that work just fine for gaming, just make sure that the native resolution of the TV can match the 360 output resolution.

for a good education on display technology, hang out here for a while

www.avsforums.com

[[[_BiZZaR3_]]]

Is there anyway to see the input lag time before you buy it?

[WaRRioR2050]

So what is the response time exacly? Is it the time it takes from when I hit a button on my controller that it happens on screen? And someone was talking about contrast ratio... I have a TV with 16ms response and a 450:1 contrast ratio... bad gaming TV?

[FandleFlox]

You will most likely not notice it and HD is the way to go but scientifically it is slower because refresh rates are longer. It really doesnt matter the human eye sees 70 frames per second (fps newbs) and the refresh rate is 100+ so its impossible for u to see it.

[chaosTheory_s3]

I have NEVER played on a LCD and enjoyed it. Ever. One was tolerable, all others have been HORRIBLe experiences... and Ive played on around 5 or so. Playing h1...

CRT fo life. Or at least until SED TV gets in a normal price range. :drool:

[codyman1]

My Hd 52 inch widescreen tv sucks to play on, I tried lanning halo 2 on a 360 on that tv, the lag was horrible, and I don't even want to talk about halo 1, it was like XBC on Dial up.

[Bonesaw]

So what is the response time exacly? Is it the time it takes from when I hit a button on my controller that it happens on screen? And someone was talking about contrast ratio... I have a TV with 16ms response and a 450:1 contrast ratio... bad gaming TV?

Response time is the time it takes for a pixel to change from white to black, or maybe it's from white to black to white...

regardless, what it affects is blurry images as things change rapidly on the screen. In Halo 1 when you pick up the health pack you get a "white out" which is much more extreme on a screen with high response time. Way back in the day you'd even see ghost images of things as they moved rapidly on the screen.

What gives you a "laggy experience" is the input lag of the tv... which isn't given a number... you just need to experience it. Guitar Hero 2 comes with an option to calibrate for input lag.

[bradfox2]

Response time is the time it takes for a pixel to change from white to black, or maybe it's from white to black to white...


Its Gray to Gray on most LCDs. Guys get a nice 20" or 22" widescreen LCD monitor (around 200-300) and a 360 VGA cable. Skip the digital and the processing latency associated with it. I have a westinghouse 22" and I dont feel any hardly any lag when on VGA. There is a little bit of lag in component.

[Bonesaw]

^ Agreed, I have a 22" westinghouse and I've owned a 19" westinghouse in the past... they have pretty bad flashbang effects, but no/very little input lag. This is through a regular xbox with an x2vga device.

[[[_BiZZaR3_]]]

Would the westing house be better then the Samsung 22" monitor?

[Bonesaw]

Most likely not. Westinghouse is just cheaper (when I bought mine). It's not a "bad" brand... they make TONS of things. They just aren't as big in the monitor market.

[Chu-Fye]

My 24" Dell works fine.

[pg13]

I have a 30" Mitsubishi LCD and I had big lag problems, and the TV did not come with a game mode. However, I was able to fix it by hooking up my 360 with a VGA cable through the PC input on my TV. No more lag and it looks a works great.

[bradfox2]

My 22" westinghouse was $200 on sale. I have never had any problems with it and virtually no lag.

My friends $400 gateway 22" is horribly laggy. You cant really go by brandnames, just read other games opinions on lag and judge by that.

[bradfox2]

My 22" westinghouse was $200 on sale. I have never had any problems with it and virtually no lag.

My friends $400 gateway 22" is horribly laggy. You cant really go by brand names, just read other games opinions on lag and judge by that.