A discussion of H3:: Where are we going with it?

[dan91bauer]

After playing the v2 maps over the span of at least 25+ custom games on them, I'm starting to notice something and I'd like to see what the over-all communitie's feel is about this. Does anyone think that we're repeating Halo 2 with Halo 3? What I mean by this is that maps like Guardian and Construct in v2 seem to be exact replicas of H2-style gameplay.

This game playing being the focuse of grabbing a single power weapon on the map and then setting up shop someplace on the map, typically a control point of some kind where a team can spread out and then basically sit there for the duration of the game never having to worry about anything else other than staying there and shooting players off from coming near them. This is like the ol' Lockout TS strat. Grab sniper, head to BR tower, setup library, BR3, BR2, etc. It's basically game over from there....sometimes.

I look at Halo CE and I see that there was a lot more going on in the maps/games themselves.

Take for instance, Prisoner. It's a 3-4 lvl map. Up top, it's got two snipers and an OS. The bottom has a rocket and camo. The map was constant control for a team to handle.

What about Damnation? 2 snipers, and a camo that spawns top side of the map near a sniper. Bottom portion of the map has a rocket and an OS that's at a high risk to grab.


I dunno, it just seems like there's not much to control on these maps right now in H3 other than having a good setup on a specific map and then sitting there and team-shooting the attacking team coming to invade your setup. That's basically just like H2 in my opinion. Is that the direction we want to go with Halo 3?

I understand that H3 has a lot of randomness just as much or more that H2 has but I think with Forge, and some key powerup choices and weapons, we can really move past the H2 style of play but I dunno if that's what MLG or the community wants to do.

It would be interesting to see what some Pros think of H3 and what game they favor more, H2-style or CE-style.

It seems like that CE-style involved several more factors of play than H2 did. You had weapon control, power up control, map control, etc.

H2-style depending on the map, seemed like it was just general map control to defend your own team's setup wherever they were setup on the map with a few power weapons thrown into the mix to control.

thoughts anyone? Can H3 ever be close to CE-style or is that something we don't want to go back to?

[Status]

You should check out this thread I made about a week ago or so.

It's a discussion about exactly what you're talking about.

http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141649&highlight=competitive+future

[lazl0w]

I've noticed this too, and I really hope MLG can do something to fix it. You brought up a lot of good points, there should be multiple power weapons, not just making it a blind rush to a single one at the beginning of the game.

[Suit and Tie]

I don't agree, to me v2 Halo 3 feels like a mix of Halo 2 and Halo: CE. MLG has incorporated the H:CE weapon spawning system so there can be multiple power weapons on the map at a time making it possible to break setups quickly. Take The Pit for example. 2 snipers, rockets, camo, overshield, that's a lot going on on a relatively small map (for H3's standards).

[Status]

I don't agree, to me v2 Halo 3 feels like a mix of Halo 2 and Halo: CE. MLG has incorporated the H:CE weapon spawning system so there can be multiple power weapons on the map at a time making it possible to break setups quickly.

Not with most power weapon respawn times set to 3 minutes, as they are in v2.

Anyway, what happens when you do successfully break a setup. You basically recreate the setup (or a very similar one) with your team.

And the pendulum swings back and forth.

Boooooooooooring.

[Hitzel_89]

The maps we have so far really don't support CE-style control. I mean, IMO, the only map that CE-style works on is Construct.

I'm sure that with Foundry, we'll be able to make maps with CE-style map control in mind. I made a mock-up map in Sauerbraten, trying to make a map that could be made using only walls, crates, and catwalks, and really, all you have to do is make a high ground on one side of the map and place important items on the less-desired side. It's basic, but it makes players move.

[dan91bauer]

Not with most power weapon respawn times set to 3 minutes, as they are in v2.

Anyway, what happens when you do successfully break a setup. You basically recreate the setup (or a very similar one) with your team.

And the pendulum swings back and forth.

Boooooooooooring.

Yeah, why are we not doing it like this:

Pistol 0:30
Plasma Rifle 0:30
Assault Rifle 0:30
Rocket Laucncher 2:00
Needler 0:30
Shotgun 0:30
Sniper Rifle 1:00
Overshield 1:00
Active Camo 2:00

[MrWuu]

I agree. It seems they are trying to make halo 3 into halo 2. If im going to be watching vod for halo 3.....i dont want it to feel like halo 2. Halo 3 has forge which brings plenty of possibilities.....but it seems like they are still on the halo 2 train. Why cant we use equipment(i understand some equipment is pretty cheap....but equipment could be cool to see in the hands of pros)? With the new mancannon you can add(when the next update comes out) they could make the map have more mobility in new ways. Custom power ups can be used in new ways too....but they make an overshield more like the halo 2 overshield.

I understand making the settings is a work in progress....i just hope they dont make halo 2.5.

[Status]

Sauerbraten

What is this?


dan91bauer:

I agree with your thoughts on the timing of the pistol (even though it's next to useless :sad:), the plasma rifle, the rocket, and the OS.

I haven't made up my mind about the assault rifle yet.

Personally, I think the needler is just too powerful. Sure, in a 1 on 1 confrontation, it's at a disadvantage to a lot of other guns. Flanking opponents while they're occupied with fighting your teammates, the needler turns into the Pink Insurance of Death.

The shotty should respawn every minute, IMO. I think 30 seconds would lead to too many shotties.

The sniper is a tricky one. Killa KC made a great point that a sniper generally lasts longer in H3 than it does in H1. I think 90 seconds wouldn't be a bad respawn time for a sniper with 2 extra clips, though.

Because the camo only lasts 30 seconds, I think it should spawn every 90.

[Hun7erX]

I don't agree, to me v2 Halo 3 feels like a mix of Halo 2 and Halo: CE. MLG has incorporated the H:CE weapon spawning system so there can be multiple power weapons on the map at a time making it possible to break setups quickly. Take The Pit for example. 2 snipers, rockets, camo, overshield, that's a lot going on on a relatively small map (for H3's standards).

i agree, i think v2 is siiiiick, got me liking H3 again

[Sabbathkicksass]

its cause the game still works like Halo 2, only differences are the autoaim/magnetism and the ****ty melee system.

[dan91bauer]

What is this?


dan91bauer:

I agree with your thoughts on the timing of the pistol (even though it's next to useless :sad:), the plasma rifle, the rocket, and the OS.

I haven't made up my mind about the assault rifle yet.

Personally, I think the needler is just too powerful. Sure, in a 1 on 1 confrontation, it's at a disadvantage to a lot of other guns. Flanking opponents while they're occupied with fighting your teammates, the needler turns into the Pink Insurance of Death.

The shotty should respawn every minute, IMO. I think 30 seconds would lead to too many shotties.

The sniper is a tricky one. Killa KC made a great point that a sniper generally lasts longer in H3 than it does in H1. I think 90 seconds wouldn't be a bad respawn time for a sniper with 2 extra clips, though.

Because the camo only lasts 30 seconds, I think it should spawn every 90.

I think I should have been more specific with my post, I was using that as just a example of a table of respawn times from Chillout in Halo CE.

Like on Construct, if we had the following weapons available on the map:

BR - 30 secs
Carbine - 90 secs
Sniper Rifle - 1:00 timer
Rockets - 2:00 timer
Overshield - 1:00 timer
Plasma Nades - 2:00
Frags - 2:00

Couldn't this work? Or is this something we don't want to do?

[Status]

I think grenades should spawn more often. However, that does depend on how many are placed on the map. (more grenades, longer respawn... and vice-versa). Plasmas might deserve a slightly stronger respawn time than frags, as they are more lethal.

(Spike grenades need to be considered, also. Read Nasty's thread about them).


I like to make carbines respawn as fast as BR's. I could see the justification in making carbines respawn every 45 seconds, though. But BR's should definitely respawn every 30 seconds. 20 if there aren't that many on the map.


I think the 1:00 time on the sniper could work if something powerful (rocket or cloak) is added to the bottom of the map. Another idea I've had is to put Rockets on sniper spawn, having them respawn every 2 minutes. Then have a sniper spawning on the bottom every 90 seconds or so. Snipe on its original spawn every 90 seconds and a laser at the bottom every 90 seconds or 2 minutes could work pretty well also, IMO.

[Rocann]

All that needs to be done is lower all the spawn times on everything, making snipers/rockets 2 minutes instead of 3 and adding a power weapon to the bottom of Construct (Rockets/OS). Everything else is great as far as I can tell.

[-Ender-]

What about something like this:

For Construct, have rockets and laser alternate spawn times on the bottom. Give them 2:30 respawn times but only put one on spawn at the start. Have the second one spawn at around 1:15.

For example, you'd have rockets bottom mid at the beginning along with the sniper up top on a 1:00 or 1:30 respawn. Then around the same time the new snipe is going to spawn, the laser will spawn for the first time right next to rocket spawn at bottom mid. It provides more variety in the power weapons and I think it would require teams to prioritize on the fly more often. Depending on the score and the amount of time left and the weapons currently spawning, teams will have to make more strategic movements. If you are down 45-37 with a few minutes left, you need to play smart in hopes of getting the sniper then dropping down to get laser or rockets also.

The same could hold true for powerups. I just think it'd be interesting to see alternating powerup spawns so they spawn faster and there's a greater variety of weapons that players need to be skilled with. I'm sure players could also find unique strategies depending on what weapons are currently on the map (and a small note, but this type of spawn would actually work well with the fact that CE-spawning makes weapons disappear; although it is really unlikely that a weapon will sit there for 1:30 in a competitive match, at least now if it happened the team would get the new spawning weapon).

[Bonesaw]

I really think something needs to change... they need to really get creative with the placement of the weapons and powerups in these levels. Take Pit TS as an example. Arguably the best level h3 has to offer in terms of actual level geometry and interesting areas... but the powerups and weapons are placed in the most obvious places with perfect and quite boring symmetry.

The entire game consists of people glancing down the 3/4 lanes of possible attack, never really committing to anything until items spawn... which by the way doesn't happen often enough. It's a standoff just like it used to be... it's just less cluttered.

I understand that part of the problem (In my Halo 1 minded opinion) is that these levels aren't asymmetrical at all, and creating "control areas" and "powerup areas" is very difficult. However, I think we need to at least try. Think about the HH camo. Just in some crappy corner of the level. There's no reason to be there other than the fact that you can power-up there. Think about the 2 snipes on Dammy. One is reasonably centered as we would expect, but then the other is in some tiny room off center not at all built for sniping from.

I think we should attempt the following for Pit TS. Deleting all spawn influencers, or making one giant neutral spawn zone to keep people from spawning in the top rooms. Then, creating multiple starting spawn points all over the map. Clearly for random starting spawns to work powerups would have be set to NOT spawn at the start of the game. Finally, start selecting some really random and seemingly strange locations for items to spawn.

Maybe consider a camo in one of the shotty corners... a snipe in one of the flag bases, but another snipe down by OS. Maybe rockets on one of the bridges leading to a tower. Just things that seem out of the ordinary by h2/h3 standards. Imagine leaving one corner of the level relatively bare, ala the red-side tombstones on HH. That would actually promote more flanking on the level. If there's nothing to protect or care about, it might allow players to slip through the area unnoticed and actually create huge plays for his team.

Halo 1 had many, "Oh wow, wtf was he DOING there?" or "WOW why the hell was he looking there?" moments. I think it'd do wonders for this game to bring that back.

[That-DAM-n00b]

If mauler is the biggest close range weapon, we are trying too hard, the sword takes much more skill than the mauler, imo

[dan91bauer]

I really think something needs to change... they need to really get creative with the placement of the weapons and powerups in these levels. Take Pit TS as an example. Arguably the best level h3 has to offer in terms of actual level geometry and interesting areas... but the powerups and weapons are placed in the most obvious places with perfect and quite boring symmetry.

The entire game consists of people glancing down the 3/4 lanes of possible attack, never really committing to anything until items spawn... which by the way doesn't happen often enough. It's a standoff just like it used to be... it's just less cluttered.

I understand that part of the problem (In my Halo 1 minded opinion) is that these levels aren't asymmetrical at all, and creating "control areas" and "powerup areas" is very difficult. However, I think we need to at least try. Think about the HH camo. Just in some crappy corner of the level. There's no reason to be there other than the fact that you can power-up there. Think about the 2 snipes on Dammy. One is reasonably centered as we would expect, but then the other is in some tiny room off center not at all built for sniping from.

I think we should attempt the following for Pit TS. Deleting all spawn influencers, or making one giant neutral spawn zone to keep people from spawning in the top rooms. Then, creating multiple starting spawn points all over the map. Clearly for random starting spawns to work powerups would have be set to NOT spawn at the start of the game. Finally, start selecting some really random and seemingly strange locations for items to spawn.

Maybe consider a camo in one of the shotty corners... a snipe in one of the flag bases, but another snipe down by OS. Maybe rockets on one of the bridges leading to a tower. Just things that seem out of the ordinary by h2/h3 standards. Imagine leaving one corner of the level relatively bare, ala the red-side tombstones on HH. That would actually promote more flanking on the level. If there's nothing to protect or care about, it might allow players to slip through the area unnoticed and actually create huge plays for his team.

Halo 1 had many, "Oh wow, wtf was he DOING there?" or "WOW why the hell was he looking there?" moments. I think it'd do wonders for this game to bring that back.

Your post is very inspiring.

[Hitzel_89]

What is this?
http://sauerbraten.org/
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=102911

It's Cube 2. Pretty much a ripoff of Quake, but it has an in-game map editor. It's the game I used to make that Block Fort map.

It's easy to use. I made this in a relatively short time. I think it'd make a nice Halo map:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j119/Hitzel/sauerbraten2007-12-0216-11-48-34.jpg

[ManTrain]

After playing the v2 maps over the span of at least 25+ custom games on them, I'm starting to notice something and I'd like to see what the over-all communitie's feel is about this. Does anyone think that we're repeating Halo 2 with Halo 3? What I mean by this is that maps like Guardian and Construct in v2 seem to be exact replicas of H2-style gameplay.

This game playing being the focuse of grabbing a single power weapon on the map and then setting up shop someplace on the map, typically a control point of some kind where a team can spread out and then basically sit there for the duration of the game never having to worry about anything else other than staying there and shooting players off from coming near them. This is like the ol' Lockout TS strat. Grab sniper, head to BR tower, setup library, BR3, BR2, etc. It's basically game over from there....sometimes.

I look at Halo CE and I see that there was a lot more going on in the maps/games themselves.

Take for instance, Prisoner. It's a 3-4 lvl map. Up top, it's got two snipers and an OS. The bottom has a rocket and camo. The map was constant control for a team to handle.

What about Damnation? 2 snipers, and a camo that spawns top side of the map near a sniper. Bottom portion of the map has a rocket and an OS that's at a high risk to grab.


I dunno, it just seems like there's not much to control on these maps right now in H3 other than having a good setup on a specific map and then sitting there and team-shooting the attacking team coming to invade your setup. That's basically just like H2 in my opinion. Is that the direction we want to go with Halo 3?

I understand that H3 has a lot of randomness just as much or more that H2 has but I think with Forge, and some key powerup choices and weapons, we can really move past the H2 style of play but I dunno if that's what MLG or the community wants to do.

It would be interesting to see what some Pros think of H3 and what game they favor more, H2-style or CE-style.

It seems like that CE-style involved several more factors of play than H2 did. You had weapon control, power up control, map control, etc.

H2-style depending on the map, seemed like it was just general map control to defend your own team's setup wherever they were setup on the map with a few power weapons thrown into the mix to control.

thoughts anyone? Can H3 ever be close to CE-style or is that something we don't want to go back to?


There is a rather common misconception that Powerups were that important in H1 4v4 games. Camo/rockets on HH is not as important in 4v4 as holding top blue. The games were so fast paced that TS games were strictly about who won their 1v1 fights and who didn't. Map control came almost 100% from killing the other team without using rockets/camo/overshield. Sometimes it lead to powerups that mattered quite a bit (rockets on chill out) but most times it didn't. (camo/rocks on priz or HH). Objective gametypes were much more about map control than TS gametypes.


I can tell you for a fact that a few of the Halo 1 pros I play with (Ogres, Nistic, and some others) don't like 4v4 TS games in H1. 3v3 H1 is much more enjoyable because there is a greater chance for a team to win using both Powerup and map control. Just last week Ogre 2 said that he liked Halo 2 4v4 much more than Halo 1.

[Hitzel_89]

H1 2v2 FTW?

[Bonesaw]

There is a rather common misconception that Powerups were that important in H1 4v4 games. Camo/rockets on HH is not as important in 4v4 as holding top blue. The games were so fast paced that TS games were strictly about who won their 1v1 fights and who didn't. Map control came almost 100% from killing the other team without using rockets/camo/overshield. Sometimes it lead to powerups that mattered quite a bit (rockets on chill out) but most times it didn't. (camo/rocks on priz or HH). Objective gametypes were much more about map control than TS gametypes.


I can tell you for a fact that a few of the Halo 1 pros I play with (Ogres, Nistic, and some others) don't like 4v4 TS games in H1. 3v3 H1 is much more enjoyable because there is a greater chance for a team to win using both Powerup and map control. Just last week Ogre 2 said that he liked Halo 2 4v4 much more than Halo 1.

That much is clear watching any 4v4 video on Hang Em or Prisoner. It's about 95% pistol. Just how open those 2 levels are forces the game to be that way. Damnation however, is a good example of TS that is heavily influenced by powerups... you can actually find safe areas to set up an attack on the other team. In HH and Pris you basically aren't safe anywhere but on top. I also agree that 3v3 was much more fun than 4v4.

[190 Proof]

This is the best thread yet about the competitive nature of Halo 3, and I completely agree with DanBauer.

In MLG's efforts to make the game 'competetive' they have overly streamlined the game down to a simple BR cross-fire contest. The limited number of weapons AND equipment on maps makes varied strategies unlikely, and damn near impossible.

Imagine if the NFL only allowed you to have 2 eligible receivers, everyone would practically be forced to run, run, run. It isn't exciting to watch, and it isn't exciting to play. Some weapons may have a small amount of randomness to them, but I see no reason why an occasional player with a plasma pistol, twin spikers, an assault rifle, a sword, a hammer, or even occassionally a shotgun would so imbalance the game that the skilled players wouldnt' still rise to the top.

The beauty of having lots of different weapons on the map is that it encourages fluid play, and it prevents any one weapon from becoming overpowering, because a combination of other weapons can counter it.

The entire game consists of people glancing down the 3/4 lanes of possible attack, never really committing to anything until items spawn... which by the way doesn't happen often enough. It's a standoff just like it used to be... it's just less cluttered.

I quoted the above paragraph because I think it is a big problem with all of the maps and setups MLG has picked except guardian, which is the only semi-fluid map at the moment. Think about it, there are really only a couple of lanes of approach on each map, and thus you see a lot less movement and a lot more camping. This can be reduced by putting more weapons and powerups on different parts of the map.

Pit: conflict basically comes down to the rocket/camo battle, snipe/countersnipe from the towers, and the occassional close-in battle around Sword spawn (which really doesn't happen, because there is only ONE close-range weapon on the map). Put more weapons on the map and you encourage teams to travel into the flag bases, into the shotgun room, and to play a more fluid style to hunt and kill opponents before they get the tools to crack your precious rocket control.

Narrows: A team which controls both snipers or sniper/rocket can sit comfortably in their base knowing the only approaches are easily covered. Top mid, bottom mid, or mancannon (deathwish). Putting more weapons or powerups in the middle would encourage the battle to come out of the bases, and make assault when down a power weapon more feasible.

Construct: Seriously? Step 1: control purple lifts, Step 2: Win. The lack of anything to control on the bottom makes this a one-dimensional map, and removes the most interesting terrain (downstairs) from play. Crazy thought: power weapons DOWNSTAIRS, height/shooting advantage UPSTAIRS. Now that's a real strategic choice.

Isolation: There are really only two fights here, brown bunker, and silver bunker. There is no reason to travel into the tunnels or to fight on the sides of the map because they don't have ANY weapons, and they are at a height disadvantage to the rest of the map. Put a needler or shotgun or even brute shots on the side bases and open up the map a bit.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm just thinking of how much fun it would be to watch more fluid MLG games. Every map doesn't' need to be fluid, but forcing teams to be able to fight both a set-piece game, and a fluid game would make MLG much more exciting for viewers and for players. There's only so many times you can watch a highlight real of sniper shots and BR triple kills... bring MLG back to the people and make it a challenging game in a whole new way.

Proof


Think about it.

[ManTrain]

That much is clear watching any 4v4 video on Hang Em or Prisoner. It's about 95% pistol. Just how open those 2 levels are forces the game to be that way. Damnation however, is a good example of TS that is heavily influenced by powerups... you can actually find safe areas to set up an attack on the other team. In HH and Pris you basically aren't safe anywhere but on top. I also agree that 3v3 was much more fun than 4v4.


In a 4v4 TS game, on any map, it is so difficult to get a powerup and not have at least one person watch you do it. Going for OS in 4v4 on Dammy is useless. You put yourself in a bad spot and there is no way you will grab an OS and get away without getting shot. Rockets are a different story because you can nade them back into Red room. Camo is meh because you can nade it back to you if you are up top or try to nade it into the shotgun area. If you are nading it into shotgun or down into rockets then odds are you are going to cost your teammates a few deaths in the meantime. The only thing that matters is holding the green room and watching the portal. Gametypes like CTF and KOTH are a different story. Rockets play a bit more important role but again, the game mostly consists of non-powerup weapon battles. The only gametypes I can think of where powerups would be more important would be something like Derelict CTF or Beavercreek CTF.

[Bonesaw]

A strategy that developed pretty late into H1's life was to rocket the camo into red. That's pretty easy to accomplish if the other team is keen on camping green. As far as just moving around the map and grabbing OS and whatnot, I agree in 4v4 it's difficult to do anything but concentrate on pistoling.

However, I think we can both agree that Halo 1 in it's TRUE form is a 2v2 game. It's what the majority of us spent countless hours playing. We may not have seen the mind games and strategy that we developed in 2v2s manifest themselves in the 4v4 game, but reproducing that dynamic SHOULD be the ultimate goal for a competative title.

If we can create a 4v4 Halo 3 where managing the map postition AND the weapons matters for total victory, I think we'll make a lot of people happy.

[Cool_Killings]

http://sauerbraten.org/
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=102911

It's Cube 2. Pretty much a ripoff of Quake, but it has an in-game map editor. It's the game I used to make that Block Fort map.

It's easy to use. I made this in a relatively short time. I think it'd make a nice Halo map:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j119/Hitzel/sauerbraten2007-12-0216-11-48-34.jpgThat looks pretty nice actually.

[HotA_Phion3x]

i could not agree more, but every time i post aobut how on-original V2 is, my post gets locked becasue MLG is God and anything they create must be GOld

[AlphaSparda]

I enjoy the fact that Halo 3 puts more emphasis on teamwork than Halo 1 did, but I do NOT like the fact that Halo 3's maps, weapon respawns, etc. creats many stand-offs. Each team picks a side of the map, has the only power weapon and basically just stand around waiting for the other team. The other team has little to no chance of breaking the setup considering the power weapons don't spawn frequently enough. Guardian is probably the worst map for this. The team that spawns elbow gets easier access to sniper rifle, and camo and equal access to the mauler. The team that spawns near green room has equal access to the mauler and then nothing else, they are put at an extreme disadvantage from the start. I also think there should be two snipers on Isolation, I think it would be more like Sanctuary. And although we hear enough about not trying to make it more like Halo2, I think Sanctuary was one of the best Halo maps and Isolation would be a million times better and more balanced with two snipers. Probably spawning on the inside of each base. And replace the sniper spawn right now with rockets and have nothing spawn at bottom "hole".
Also, whoever made the forged version of Construct (I forgot) with rockets that spawn on bottom and the teleporter that leads to sword spawn is awesome. That map flows very well built that way and I think that should have been implemented into the V2 gametypes.

Just my 2 cents.

[That-DAM-n00b]

This is the best thread yet about the competitive nature of Halo 3, and I completely agree with DanBauer.

In MLG's efforts to make the game 'competetive' they have overly streamlined the game down to a simple BR cross-fire contest. The limited number of weapons AND equipment on maps makes varied strategies unlikely, and damn near impossible.

Imagine if the NFL only allowed you to have 2 eligible receivers, everyone would practically be forced to run, run, run. It isn't exciting to watch, and it isn't exciting to play. Some weapons may have a small amount of randomness to them, but I see no reason why an occasional player with a plasma pistol, twin spikers, an assault rifle, a sword, a hammer, or even occassionally a shotgun would so imbalance the game that the skilled players wouldnt' still rise to the top.

The beauty of having lots of different weapons on the map is that it encourages fluid play, and it prevents any one weapon from becoming overpowering, because a combination of other weapons can counter it.



I quoted the above paragraph because I think it is a big problem with all of the maps and setups MLG has picked except guardian, which is the only semi-fluid map at the moment. Think about it, there are really only a couple of lanes of approach on each map, and thus you see a lot less movement and a lot more camping. This can be reduced by putting more weapons and powerups on different parts of the map.

Pit: conflict basically comes down to the rocket/camo battle, snipe/countersnipe from the towers, and the occassional close-in battle around Sword spawn (which really doesn't happen, because there is only ONE close-range weapon on the map). Put more weapons on the map and you encourage teams to travel into the flag bases, into the shotgun room, and to play a more fluid style to hunt and kill opponents before they get the tools to crack your precious rocket control.

Narrows: A team which controls both snipers or sniper/rocket can sit comfortably in their base knowing the only approaches are easily covered. Top mid, bottom mid, or mancannon (deathwish). Putting more weapons or powerups in the middle would encourage the battle to come out of the bases, and make assault when down a power weapon more feasible.

Construct: Seriously? Step 1: control purple lifts, Step 2: Win. The lack of anything to control on the bottom makes this a one-dimensional map, and removes the most interesting terrain (downstairs) from play. Crazy thought: power weapons DOWNSTAIRS, height/shooting advantage UPSTAIRS. Now that's a real strategic choice.

Isolation: There are really only two fights here, brown bunker, and silver bunker. There is no reason to travel into the tunnels or to fight on the sides of the map because they don't have ANY weapons, and they are at a height disadvantage to the rest of the map. Put a needler or shotgun or even brute shots on the side bases and open up the map a bit.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm just thinking of how much fun it would be to watch more fluid MLG games. Every map doesn't' need to be fluid, but forcing teams to be able to fight both a set-piece game, and a fluid game would make MLG much more exciting for viewers and for players. There's only so many times you can watch a highlight real of sniper shots and BR triple kills... bring MLG back to the people and make it a challenging game in a whole new way.

Proof


Think about it.


proof that's actually a great idea for construct, I'd like to see a map forged that way.

[Hitzel_89]

The only part about Proof's post I disagree with is his Construct argument. It's hard to hold the top of construct when there's 6 ways up top. There needs to be a power weapon downstairs, though. IMO it should be the laser.

[Pyroteq]

proof that's actually a great idea for construct, I'd like to see a map forged that way.

Try out the Construct map on my file share (sig). I put an OS down the bottom of the map (You need to use the correct game type for the custom power up to work). Top also has a Camo, but I think I'll remove that in the future since holding that area already gives you an advantage.

[dan91bauer]

Last night, Twisted Bullet and I were in some custom games and we got to talking about these asymetrical maps we're using in MLG, Guardiand and Construct. Earlier that day he had told me about loading up 1-flag CTF games on those maps and just seeing where the attacking team and defending team spawned and which specific weapons on map default Bungie intended each side to have in order to complete the objective. Last night, Bullet and I decided to load up 1-bomb games and really see how the asymetrical maps are meant to be played, in otherwords, where are the power-sides of the map in relation to the weak sides of the map.

2 points to keep in mind::

Attacking sides always have the best weapons to start with. They typically have a sniper and an overshield. The OS is meant to protect someone attacking. The Sniper is meant to take out defenders so the attacking team can move in on the objective. This is a reoccuring trend in almost all of the asymetrical maps in Halo 3. Check it out for yourself, load up Guardian, Epitaph, High Ground, and Construct.

The defending side typically has close-range weapons with a mixture of long range weapons. They also seem to always get camo to help them out. Typically though, the defending side of a map, typically where the bomb is suppose to be planted, is the weakest side you would ever want to setup on for TS.

-----------------

So what does all of this mean? Well, we loaded up the MLG v2s and first we started with Guardian.

Guardian as it stands right now has a sniper spawning snipe 3, it's on the attacking side of that map. For TS and for Ball games, this side of the map is going to be the power side, the one side that most teams are probably going to want to set up at and control. Now, like Lockout, the attacking side spawned on the BR tower in a 1-sided objective game, thus the sniper rifle was spawning directly opposite of that map, however, still meant for the attacking team, they just had to travel a bit to get it or shoot the barrels.

One of the things though in MLG TS on Lockout was that every team wanted to setup at BR tower but the sniper was not exactly a gimmie to them all the time. Right now on Guardian, it's a gimmie. Once a team sets up at the sniper side of Guardian, they have the re-spawning sniper right there every time, thus never really having to move from that location.

Wouldn't it make sense to spawn the sniper opposite side of that map, maybe in place of the camo or in that area of top yellow? This is so a team would have to earn the power weapon and then back-track to the power-side of the map and control that side.

Construct is another map. Bullet and I were sitting top mid of that map last night thinking...why did Bungie put this sniper rifle randomally out in the middle here? Truth is, it's not random, it's there for a reason. Load up 1-bomb and you will see that the attacking team spawns up top where sword is. The attacking team gets instant access to the sniper rifle, power drainer, sword, some BRs and some Maulers on the purple lifts. That sword side of the map is the power-side of that map.

The defending side is one of the weakest sides of that map. The bomb plant site is at mid-yellow lift just on the backside corner of the back-side ramp leading to top yellow lift. The defending team gets a couple of BRs, and brute shots. They also get the missle pod to defend against the attackers trying to get the laser if they choose to do so. The flame thrower actually acts as an offensive weapon to help defend the attackers coming in to plant the bomb.

So naturally Bullet and I thought, why do we have sniper rifle spawning out on that top mid portion on the attacking side of the map for TS games? Remember, keep in mind that Bungie didn't design these asymetrical maps for TS games, they're orginally designed for 1-sided objective games, attacking and defending. We came up with an idea of moving the sniper to the weaker side of Construct. We don't exactly know where but later today we're both going to work on that and come back here with our ideas.

I know we don't use Epitaph, but the same thing is happening there. Attacking side is getting a rocket launcher, power drainer, OS, and even the freaking grav hammer.

The defending side is getting a needler, camo, bubble shield and maulers. Another reason why the rockets are spawning up in the top middle of that map and the only team that has access to them is the attacking team in a 1-sided objective game, thus that attacking side of the map is the strongest side for a TS game.


Sorry for the lengthy post but Bullet and I were amazed by our discoveries last night. With symetrical maps, TS works out great because everything is pretty much a netural battle in terms of attaining power weapons, etc.

Look at midship, Sanctuary and Warlock. Each one of those maps had some power weapons but they were either netural or they were given right at the start to each team and it made those maps great for TS and objective games.

I think we have two great asymetrical maps: Guardian and Construct. I just think if we were to study Damnation and Chillout from Halo CE, some of the best asymetrical maps ever designed in Halo, we can come up with better variants to Guardian and Construct.

[TWISTED-BULLET]

I believe there need to be 2 types of control on a map at 1 respawn time, by this I mean If snipers up then rockets or something else is also up. I want competitive balance from halo 3, but I also want options for teams that don't have map control. The thing is... you shouldn't just give uber power weapons too team without map control just so they can destroy everyone. Teams without map control still have to earn that.

An example of this is on construct - do place rockets or any power ups on the floors, plce them on the 2nd level of orange lift and truely make it postion over position. Just sticking 3x overshield or rockets at the bottom of the map where the top team can't cover it is terribly imbalanced IMO.

So really it's about the top team having the benifits of position and a power weapon vs no position but a power weapon.

The top of the map is supposed to be defended, defending weapon are rockets, attacking weapons are snipers. I'd like to see a forge of rockets and snipers on construct and make it balance.

[That-DAM-n00b]

Last night, Twisted Bullet and I were in some custom games and we got to talking about these asymetrical maps we're using in MLG, Guardiand and Construct. Earlier that day he had told me about loading up 1-flag CTF games on those maps and just seeing where the attacking team and defending team spawned and which specific weapons on map default Bungie intended each side to have in order to complete the objective. Last night, Bullet and I decided to load up 1-bomb games and really see how the asymetrical maps are meant to be played, in otherwords, where are the power-sides of the map in relation to the weak sides of the map.

2 points to keep in mind::

Attacking sides always have the best weapons to start with. They typically have a sniper and an overshield. The OS is meant to protect someone attacking. The Sniper is meant to take out defenders so the attacking team can move in on the objective. This is a reoccuring trend in almost all of the asymetrical maps in Halo 3. Check it out for yourself, load up Guardian, Epitaph, High Ground, and Construct.

The defending side typically has close-range weapons with a mixture of long range weapons. They also seem to always get camo to help them out. Typically though, the defending side of a map, typically where the bomb is suppose to be planted, is the weakest side you would ever want to setup on for TS.

-----------------

So what does all of this mean? Well, we loaded up the MLG v2s and first we started with Guardian.

Guardian as it stands right now has a sniper spawning snipe 3, it's on the attacking side of that map. For TS and for Ball games, this side of the map is going to be the power side, the one side that most teams are probably going to want to set up at and control. Now, like Lockout, the attacking side spawned on the BR tower in a 1-sided objective game, thus the sniper rifle was spawning directly opposite of that map, however, still meant for the attacking team, they just had to travel a bit to get it or shoot the barrels.

One of the things though in MLG TS on Lockout was that every team wanted to setup at BR tower but the sniper was not exactly a gimmie to them all the time. Right now on Guardian, it's a gimmie. Once a team sets up at the sniper side of Guardian, they have the re-spawning sniper right there every time, thus never really having to move from that location.

Wouldn't it make sense to spawn the sniper opposite side of that map, maybe in place of the camo or in that area of top yellow? This is so a team would have to earn the power weapon and then back-track to the power-side of the map and control that side.

Construct is another map. Bullet and I were sitting top mid of that map last night thinking...why did Bungie put this sniper rifle randomally out in the middle here? Truth is, it's not random, it's there for a reason. Load up 1-bomb and you will see that the attacking team spawns up top where sword is. The attacking team gets instant access to the sniper rifle, power drainer, sword, some BRs and some Maulers on the purple lifts. That sword side of the map is the power-side of that map.

The defending side is one of the weakest sides of that map. The bomb plant site is at mid-yellow lift just on the backside corner of the back-side ramp leading to top yellow lift. The defending team gets a couple of BRs, and brute shots. They also get the missle pod to defend against the attackers trying to get the laser if they choose to do so. The flame thrower actually acts as an offensive weapon to help defend the attackers coming in to plant the bomb.

So naturally Bullet and I thought, why do we have sniper rifle spawning out on that top mid portion on the attacking side of the map for TS games? Remember, keep in mind that Bungie didn't design these asymetrical maps for TS games, they're orginally designed for 1-sided objective games, attacking and defending. We came up with an idea of moving the sniper to the weaker side of Construct. We don't exactly know where but later today we're both going to work on that and come back here with our ideas.

I know we don't use Epitaph, but the same thing is happening there. Attacking side is getting a rocket launcher, power drainer, OS, and even the freaking grav hammer.

The defending side is getting a needler, camo, bubble shield and maulers. Another reason why the rockets are spawning up in the top middle of that map and the only team that has access to them is the attacking team in a 1-sided objective game, thus that attacking side of the map is the strongest side for a TS game.


Sorry for the lengthy post but Bullet and I were amazed by our discoveries last night. With symetrical maps, TS works out great because everything is pretty much a netural battle in terms of attaining power weapons, etc.

Look at midship, Sanctuary and Warlock. Each one of those maps had some power weapons but they were either netural or they were given right at the start to each team and it made those maps great for TS and objective games.

I think we have two great asymetrical maps: Guardian and Construct. I just think if we were to study Damnation and Chillout from Halo CE, some of the best asymetrical maps ever designed in Halo, we can come up with better variants to Guardian and Construct.


I completely disagree with the mlg gaurdian comment, it would seem you haven't played enough ball on that map, because by far the best ball setup is to put your close range weapon/weapons if you can get more maulers in the blue room, have the ball hide in blue hall, and have 2 guys in lift/br 2.

[Pyroteq]

I was in a game with Bauer and he was showing me the stuff you guys found. While most of what you've said is correct - Here's my view:

Rockets on Construct is bad. I thought about it when I was originally Forging my maps but decided against it for an important reason: The gravity lifts. If someone comes up the lifts with a RL, that's an instant kill or double kill for who ever is up there (A team controlling the top will almost always have 1 or 2 people at the top of pink lifts). The other problem is the controlling team in possession of the RL, anyone who comes up the lifts is an instant free kill.

I agree the Sniper should be moved, it's not all that useful on Construct anyway and it's a suicide rush to get to it.

As for Guardian, I'm not really sure what side is the best to hold. I personally think Yellow/Blue is the best side to hold because you've got more room to move. Setting up on Sniper can be easily broken because of the amount of easy grenade points where as holding Blue/Yellow it's easier to dodge those random grenades flying in all over the place and if anyone does manage to get across they're easier to team shoot. I think a power up should be in the middle of the map to create an incentive for a team to move more often. I've put an OS under glass.

I've updated my Forged maps, the links in my sig. Maybe this could give you some ideas.

[SaLoT]

i agree, i think v2 is siiiiick, got me liking H3 again

Key word feels like Halo 2. Also i seen a thread from the MLG that they tweak some Base player Traits to make up for no BxB and BXR?

Its like this and i will put it as respectful as i can

MLG i don't Want to play the same Game but with a different Title There is a big Difference and it can be explain with one Number 3 This is halo 3 Not halo 2 So stop making it feel more like halo 2 try to make it feel like Halo 3!

This is not a post to disrespect just to knowledge that we want more Varity in the game we have the tools Use it please.

[SnaKKer]

For the people who want H3 to not be like H2, I'm curious which direction they want to go with it. The way I see it, there are two extremes to shooters. On one end we have Rainbow Six, slower, more tactical. On the other end we have Quake, fast-paced, reflex, crazy. All shooters fall in between there somehow. Halo 1 was faster, Halo 2 was slower, and Halo 3 seems in between those. Would you rather it be faster and more hectic a la Quake, or slower and more methodical like Rainbow Six?

[That-DAM-n00b]

Try out the Construct map on my file share (sig). I put an OS down the bottom of the map (You need to use the correct game type for the custom power up to work). Top also has a Camo, but I think I'll remove that in the future since holding that area already gives you an advantage.


I'll check it out pyro, thanks.

[5NAK3 3YE5]

For the people who want H3 to not be like H2, I'm curious which direction they want to go with it. The way I see it, there are two extremes to shooters. On one end we have Rainbow Six, slower, more tactical. On the other end we have Quake, fast-paced, reflex, crazy. All shooters fall in between there somehow. Halo 1 was faster, Halo 2 was slower, and Halo 3 seems in between those. Would you rather it be faster and more hectic a la Quake, or slower and more methodical like Rainbow Six?

QUAKE

rb6, cod, gow all let you be as methodical as you want, at least one game should about sustained aiming and reflexes.

[dan91bauer]

For the people who want H3 to not be like H2, I'm curious which direction they want to go with it. The way I see it, there are two extremes to shooters. On one end we have Rainbow Six, slower, more tactical. On the other end we have Quake, fast-paced, reflex, crazy. All shooters fall in between there somehow. Halo 1 was faster, Halo 2 was slower, and Halo 3 seems in between those. Would you rather it be faster and more hectic a la Quake, or slower and more methodical like Rainbow Six?

I'd rather the game be more like Quake. I think to the common eye, they see Quake as being hectic, however, there's actually structure to Quake in a 1v1 duel. Just like in Halo CE, I remember when I played it that I was not staying in one area at a time with my teammates.

I'll use hang'em high as an example. Asymetrical map. I used to have a route that I constantly took when I played that map in a 3v3 or even a 4v4 and that was grab camo and get rockets and just control that side of the map. I didn't mind giving up sniper or OS or any of the other weapons or the otherside of the map. I had friends that I played against who decided to give that side of the map up and play a more team-shooting style by controlling the uppers of the map and controlling OS, etc. I never played at the competitive levels of CE but I did understand what was going on in that game.

Damnation was no different. I much rather had controlled the rockets and OS than the snipers. Losing that control of the rockets/OS was part of the game and keeping them away from the other team was in my opinion, the entire skill-structure of Halo CE.

It seems like in Halo 3, we're afraid to add more than 1 controlling factor to these asymetrical maps. Bullet and I probably sit in Forge for the longest times debating back and forth about which things should be on the map and what kind of "contest" should be played.

He's on the mindset that Guardian is a great map where one side has a power weapon, that being the Sniper, and then the opposite side having the Camo. I like that idea as well, but I'd rather see more timing factors coming into play. I'm not saying add a rocket to the map but something else that can promote movement. Because right now, on that map, one team will determine the power side of the map and then just hold it down without really having to force themselves to move elsewhere.

Construct is another example. We have a map of different levels and the top side with the purple lifts is the power side in my opinion. Again, we have one single power weapon of control on that map, the rest of the control is just seeing how long your team can hold a specific side of the map, again, without barely moving. This to me is a H2 philosophy and I personally hate that.

You bring up a good point of Quake because in games like Quake and Painkiller, you're controlling the following:

Gold Armor
Silver Armor
Bronze Armor
mega health
med. healths and small healths
Rocket
Rocket Ammo
Rail gun
Rail gun Ammo
Quad damages
Camos
etc....

And this is just for 1v1s. One could look at that and say, wth? All of that is involved in a 1v1 game? Yes. The test of the contest is which player has ultimate control of every single factor in the map. This is map control, weapon control, ammo control, health control, pyschological control as well. The pyschological control is being able to evade your opponent and prevent him from ever picking up anything that will give him an upper hand in the battle.

There's also a test of shooting/aiming ability. Let's be honest here, if you don't know the basics like leading, precision aiming, rocket jumping, nade jumping, etc, you're going to lose. Those are all separate factors that have nothing to do with the map, that's just individual skills.

In Halo CE, pros mastered the 3sk. Not only did they master that, but the had weapon timing, powerup timing, map positioning/control all timed and mastered. I don't see that style of play in Halo anymore, I think it was truly lost in Halo 2.

I think with Halo 3 we can go beyond what CE did for Halo. I just think we need to really tinker this game even more than we already have. Let's not hold ourselves back and think that having too much on a map destroys the emphasis on team shooting etc. Let's let go of our fears and step outside the Halo 2 box that I think a majority of this community seems to live in and doesn't want to leave. Please don't take offense to my statement, it's merely an opinion of mind, I mean no aggression or dislike to anyone.

[SnaKKer]

I'd rather the game be more like Quake. I think to the common eye, they see Quake as being hectic, however, there's actually structure to Quake in a 1v1 duel. Just like in Halo CE, I remember when I played it that I was not staying in one area at a time with my teammates.

Right, well I'm in no way suggesting that Quake doesn't take strategy. I know that a pro Quake player is making the same tactical decisions as a RS or Halo player, it's just due to the gameplay mechanics, his movement is alot faster and /looks/ hectic at times.

It seems like in Halo 3, we're afraid to add more than 1 controlling factor to these asymetrical maps. Bullet and I probably sit in Forge for the longest times debating back and forth about which things should be on the map and what kind of "contest" should be played.

He's on the mindset that Guardian is a great map where one side has a power weapon, that being the Sniper, and then the opposite side having the Camo. I like that idea as well, but I'd rather see more timing factors coming into play. I'm not saying add a rocket to the map but something else that can promote movement. Because right now, on that map, one team will determine the power side of the map and then just hold it down without really having to force themselves to move elsewhere.

I think there should be more than one way to control a map. The best competitive games I've played on all three Halo games involved my team flowing around the map, controlling different areas, different weapons, and being able to evolve our strategy on the fly. I think that is a huge part of the game that is lost when you only have a single power weapon on a map like Guardian and people naturally head there to control the weapon and the map. If I spawn in Yellow or Blue I'm generally going to head over to sniper. I might sweep around and look for people/weapons, but my end goal is to end up over there, because I know there will either be potential kills there, or I'll get to set up my team over there and work on getting control.

This is where the true similarities between Guardian and Lockout pop up. It can be argued, and has been in this thread, that Blue/Yellow side is better than sniper tower, just like BR tower in Lockout, with the space provided both vertically and horizontally out to the Library. Most of the best setups on Lockout involved some adaptation of your basic BR setup, and I'm not sure why we haven't seen that be as prevalent on Guardian, when the weapon and control structure of the map is so similar. I don't think that camo is that much of an advantage for that 'weaker' side, whereas having the sword spawn so close on Lockout gave that team the ability to control the map from a distance with BRs from several angles, and up close with the sword. Maybe Guardian needs a sword on that side, I don't know.

Construct is another example. We have a map of different levels and the top side with the purple lifts is the power side in my opinion. Again, we have one single power weapon of control on that map, the rest of the control is just seeing how long your team can hold a specific side of the map, again, without barely moving. This to me is a H2 philosophy and I personally hate that.

Someone mentioned earlier moving all the power weapons and powerups on Construct down to the bottom level, which might help, but it might just end up with people going down there to get them and going back up. But I've seen a variety of great setups on Construct as-is, people holding the top, the top of orange lift, one side of the top, even the very bottom. It is designed so well to be a circular, fluvial map where teams have to adapt and move in order to maintain control, but I don't think I've seen a weapon/powerup system that encourages that as much as possible.

I start from the ground up thinking about how a map would work with what weapons.

If it's only BRs, either you get a lockdown like on Lockout where you get stuck in a stalemate, or sometimes your team just flies around the map, hunting down the other team before they can assemble.

If you add a single power weapon, you get the pendulum effect, with a initial team getting it, gaining the lead, then losing it, and on and on.

Adding a powerup can help with the flow of the map, because I know if I get an OS, I want to make the most of it, and so we might charge in to take out a setup, or try to clear the map and get to a spot to gain control. I won't pick up the OS and just hang out in my setup.

But, if you add too many weapons and powerups, then it gets to the point where it's almost random. There's less BR skill involved and more 'I gotta get to weapon x at y time' and getting mauled on the way there.

You bring up a good point of Quake because in games like Quake and Painkiller, you're controlling the following:

Gold Armor
Silver Armor
Bronze Armor
mega health
med. healths and small healths
Rocket
Rocket Ammo
Rail gun
Rail gun Ammo
Quad damages
Camos
etc....

And this is just for 1v1s. One could look at that and say, wth? All of that is involved in a 1v1 game? Yes. The test of the contest is which player has ultimate control of every single factor in the map. This is map control, weapon control, ammo control, health control, pyschological control as well. The pyschological control is being able to evade your opponent and prevent him from ever picking up anything that will give him an upper hand in the battle.

And I think a game of Halo should have that many factors, but I don't know if there really are that many. I can put several power weapons on the map, but I can only carry two, and I will really only need two, so once I get a couple I like I'm not going to necessarily run around to keep the other player/s from getting the other ones. Most of the time I'm fine with a BR and shotgun, so inundating the map with weapons/powerups isn't the answer. I know that's not what you are saying, I'm just thinking.

In Halo CE, pros mastered the 3sk. Not only did they master that, but the had weapon timing, powerup timing, map positioning/control all timed and mastered. I don't see that style of play in Halo anymore, I think it was truly lost in Halo 2.

Well I think the masses deluded what control and timing was for Halo 1. Control and timing got boiled down in H2 and became 'let's hang out at the sniper spawn until it spawns again'. Maybe the answer for that is putting weapons in places where they are going to get contested, not in towers and hallways where teams can wait for them to come back.

I think with Halo 3 we can go beyond what CE did for Halo. I just think we need to really tinker this game even more than we already have. Let's not hold ourselves back and think that having too much on a map destroys the emphasis on team shooting etc. Let's let go of our fears and step outside the Halo 2 box that I think a majority of this community seems to live in and doesn't want to leave. Please don't take offense to my statement, it's merely an opinion of mind, I mean no aggression or dislike to anyone.

I think that we are slowly moving away from Halo 2. Obviously so far MLG settings have reflected a Halo 2 style of play, but I have seen some great things in Forge that might make for great changes to the standard MLG style of play. There might also be a bit of irony here, considering that the community has cried about Bungie's apparent lack of support for competitive play and their 'family friendly' playstyle that they have adapted in H2 and H3, and now we might see MLG stick with the normal style of play in order to reach the large fan base they had with Halo 2 and not change the game as much as some would like to see. It might be a smart business move - MLG enjoyed great success with Halo 2, and alot of the players who enjoyed Halo 2 through MLG in the past years might be upset to see things changed alot.

That might be completely off-base, I'm just thinking out loud now.

[dan91bauer]

That might be completely off-base, I'm just thinking out loud now.

Keep thinking out loud. It's very good and really allows people to think outside the box the way you have in your points that you gave in your post.

[chaosTheory_s3]

This is by far the most intelligent discussion of this topic I've seen since Halo 3 came out. I agree with almost everything that has been said about trying to do more with halo 3 than it currently being done. However I also think that they know what they're doing too, so I think the first REAL criticism of these gametypes needs to be after the first event. Not now. I think they will change significantly in the next few months unless they really are making these changes for halo 3 to be more accessible to kids that played a ton of halo 2. I hope that is not the case, and I dont believe it is.

The inherent problem with all these supposed changes to make halo 3 more like halo 1 is the ratio of kill time between your starting weapon and your power weapons. A perfect BR 4shot, which does hot happen too commonly in halo 3 takes a hair over 2 seconds. A tsk is about 1 flat. Do you guys realize what halo 1 would be like if the pistol was a 6 shot kill and was inaccurate at range? Dear god rockets or snipe would make you a SERIOUS force. A 3x overshield on top of that would make you god himself. It would start to play a LOT more like halo 2 but with better weapon spawning. Team shooting would be an absolute necessity. You cant make h2/3 into a 1 second kill without totally destroying everythign else abuot the game. Plus headshots are way too easy for a weapon that powerful and fast...

What halo 2 had, was the ability to easily team shoot and some MISTAKES that bungie made that actually added to the gameplay. The same thing is essentially true of halo 1 with the double melee. The thing is, you had OPTIONS at most ranges. Which you chose and your aim with that choice was the determining factor in who won.

This is somewhat subjective so you can disagree if you like, but this is how it plays out in my mind.

Weapons/glitches that can trump an advantage (superior weapon or up shots) in the same range at said ranges:

Range - close - mid - long

h1- double melee*/shotty/PR/rocket ....... pistol*/rocket/snipe ....... snipe/pistol*
h2- bxr*/bxb*/shotty/sword.......- teamshot/snipe (sorta)/rocket/RRX* ....... Snipe
h3- shotty/sword/hammer .......- teamshot/BR*(sorta) ....... snipe

* indicates you spawn with the weapon/ability.

Look at h1. You have an option, off your spawn, to deal with ANYTHING at any range.
H2- you had options up close and at med range. MLG didnt use huge maps so the last one was pretty much negated.
Now look at h3. YOu spawn with no options up close (even LESS with the god-awful melee system). One option at mid range (you can out-br someone in h3 when down a shot, Ive done it and its been done to me) and basically no options at long range.

I realize that there is wiggle room in all of those statements, they are just generalizations.

These are TOTALLY different games in terms or dynamics. Just something as simple as having more VIALBLE options changes everything. When your starting weapon takes FOREVER to kill it makes power weapons SOO much more powerful. You can't arbitrarily add stuff to halo 3 without totally breaking it IMO. They're just using a template of a game that is close and ended up really showing who was the better team. I think it can change, but to imply that they can put more powerups and weapons onthe map and all of a sudden you have H1 dynamics is totally wrong. H1 worked in the context of h1. Halo 2 and 3 were designed for new players. You cant just start trying to make a game with totally different weapon dynamics into h1. YOu gotta start with what works, and right now h2 settings are the closest thing to a balanced BR start game. THey will change but it will take LOTS of testign and time.

I could keep writing on this but I think I basically got the point out. YOu can make a game something it's not if you dont have that FOUNDATION to work with.

[Bonesaw]

I'm working on a TS Pit variant right now that focus on keeping things flowing instead of stand offs. I like what I have so far... as it comes along I might consider posting it.

[chaosTheory_s3]

In regards to the maps tho, they cant take cues directly from what made the h1 maps good and apply that directly to h3. They won't, but they should. MLG needs to take this kind of thing into account as well. Look at the best h1 maps... they had advantageous positions, but there was NEVER an incentive to stay there.

Top Blue is the best spot on HH, but there is not a SINGLE weapon up there, nothing.
Green room is the best spot on Dammy, there is not ONE weapon (AR ammo) or advantage in that room.
Chilly didnt really have an advantageous position but there were 3+ entrances into every room (I'll touch on that in a sec). But every advantage was spread out or was put in vulnerable positions. Same with rocket in dammy, priz, hh, etc. Always in a place you would NEVER want to stay.

Chilly had 3 or more entrances into every room. Dammy had a ton of routes you could take to get anywhere. There was not nearly as much camping cause your enemy had so many options. Thats also why middy worked so well in h2, the bases had 4 entrances and so many options. Snipe 2 in guardian is actually a good example of how that idea can play out. ITs one of the most dynamic spots in h3 imo.

H1 maps had balancing elements. Alsmot every OS spawn in h1 had a PR close to it. Ladder up to OS level in priz, right outside os in chilly, pr and pp on both sides of OS in dammy, the original guys thought all this stuff out- its clear. Thats why h1 could not have been an "accident." They never put shotties in choke points... They put snipes in choke points like chilly hallway. THat whole idea went out the WINDOW for h3. THey put one of 4 instakill short range weapons at every choke point, blind corner and lift exit in the game. They put advantages in advantageous positions. There was not an OS and snipe and shotgun at top blue in hh... yet why is there at snipe tower on guardian??? you get that spot and all the things that make it better. SO terribly thought out. Priz had camo rocks at the bottom of the map and it was great. You wanted to get them and MOVE up top.

MLG needs to change this, even more so than they already have IMO. I trust they will tho. There should not be advantages in advantageous positions. Make people MOVE.


EDIT: EXCEPT DERELICT lol... EVERYTHING is up top in dere... and it was removed from tournament 2v2 play for that reason. Fun map but not terribly balanced. Switch camo and health pack and make rockets every 2 minutes and you got yourself a helluva map tho.

[-NaStY-]

Hitzel and I have known this and have been forging based on these theories for a while.

Right now, we have a Guardian Map, currently running under the name Exile. It has:

-Snipers drop spawning every 90 w/ 1 clip at S3 and the mauler spawn by camo
-Custom power-up that gives camo for 30 spawning at the curvy bend between blue and lift every 2 minutes (doesn't spawn at start)
-OS spawning at tree every 2 minutes (doesn't spawn at start)
-Rockets spawning with no extra clips every minute at top center (H2 style spawn since drops don't work well with rockets)
-A teleporter from blue room to elbow
-Shotgun spawning in the middle of shotgun hall (not the end) every minute (H2 style spawn)
-Plasma pistol bottom center
-Magnums on either side of bottom lift
-Carbines EVERYWHERE


It's by far the best guardian map I've played yet. Yesterday I played some 2v2's with Shockwave on it. By halfway through the first game he ever played on it, we were already reminding each other that power-ups were up, using advanced strategy with the teleporter to break snipe tower, and controlling the hell out of every rocket spawn. We were never camping in one spot during the entire game, and actually spent most of the game across the map from each other.

It was amazing because it promoted flow with numerous power-up spawns, a reasonable weapon to be controlled, sniper battles that allowed both sides a sniper so that it was a normal weapon instead of a power weapon, and a teleporter that sped up combat and made battles more dynamic.

It'll be up on my fileshare soon, but the point is: Halo 1's rotational style of controlling power-ups is better. End of story. Do it.

[MrCrowley]

I have only one question for this group. Why NOT use the laser. Has it been demed to easy to use? It seems like it has the best concept of any power weapon in the halo franhcise. Powerful but tough to use. I feel like people think it is too powerful because they use it with a motion sensor or on huge maps like valhalla. I mean standing out in the open charging the weapon is suicide especially on a small map without radar. So charging it behind cover requires you to know where your target is through communication or just having seen the target without the target seing you. Then you must time leaving cover and aiming and the shot.

[chaosTheory_s3]

I have only one question for this group. Why NOT use the laser. Has it been demed to easy to use? It seems like it has the best concept of any power weapon in the halo franhcise. Powerful but tough to use. I feel like people think it is too powerful because they use it with a motion sensor or on huge maps like valhalla. I mean standing out in the open charging the weapon is suicide especially on a small map without radar. So charging it behind cover requires you to know where your target is through communication or just having seen the target without the target seing you. Then you must time leaving cover and aiming and the shot.

The Spartan Laser is my favorite weapon in any Halo since the pistol. I said it. :D

Seriously the most fun Ive ever had with halo 3 was ffa on Iso with snipe/laser start.

It'll find it's way into MLG eventually, I'm sure of it.

[190 Proof]

EMULATION IS BAD.

I disagree with trying to make H3 more like H2, AND with trying to make it like H1.
I disagree with trying to make H3 more like Quake, AND with trying to make it more like R6V.

H3 has to be addressed on its own merits. It is a fast-pasted game, with a wide variety of weapons, that are dominant in a wide variety of settings. It is a team-based game, where communication, team-shooting, and strategy are the keys to victory.

Why not play to those strengths by opening up the maps by moving desirable weapons/powerups/equipment to neglected places, and forcing teams to choose between controlling strategic avenues of approach and controlling weapons? As it sits right now, on EVERY MLG map the desirable items are almost all convenient to their useage.

However I also think that they know what they're doing too, so I think the first REAL criticism of these gametypes needs to be after the first event. Not now. I think they will change significantly in the next few months unless they really are making these changes for halo 3 to be more accessible to kids that played a ton of halo 2. I hope that is not the case, and I dont believe it is.

One of the most important maxims of the last few decades in product innovation is to "fail quickly." The correct time to discuss these issues is now; not after the first MLG 2008 event. Nothing is more destructive to a competitive environment than changing the rules partway through. The only benefit to waiting until after a tournament is that you would have first-hand experience of how rules will effect the tourney, but you would only have experience on that ONE rule set, whereas experimentation and widespread testing prior to the tournament through community-interaction and online tourneys allows you to test a wide variety of settings. Many of these settings will fail, but they will fail quickly, and we can learn from the result to adopt a better ruleset.

To be honest, what I would like to see is a constantly evolving, very creative and "out there" set of gametypes/maps that can be tested alongside the regular V1, V2 progression. MLG distributes V2 rules and also EXP1.0 rules, and good ideas from the experimental set can be included in the main gametype progression. I think Killa KC has already started on the nuggest of this idea by posting some hypothetical gametypes/maps in his links, but making it a wider community endeavor would get a lot more feedback and allow much more rapid evolution towards the optimal ruleset.

Bravo to everyone contributing to this thread btw, some really great ideas and discussion are being generated.

Proof

[chaosTheory_s3]

Not that I meant to not question anything before the first event. Of course suggestions are great now so they can get all the feedback they need. But my point was to not be all "MLG IS STUPID THEYRE MAKING H2!!1" right now cause this is just as much experimentation at this point as an all laser CTF would be. This is NOT what is going to be used at tournaments was my point. Give all kinds of feedback, great, but dont call Anakin and nexy stupid for making these the way they are. It's just testing for the most part. If they are still like this at the first event, thats when you can start calling names and being beligerent if you truly hate them. They have the best intentions and they dont want this to be h2 any more than anyone else does. THey just want to be sure the best team will win. I agree h3 needs to be it's own game. H2 worked in the context of h2, h1 worked in the context of h1 and h3 will be the same, hopefully.

[fiftyfootorange]

It might be a smart business move - MLG enjoyed great success with Halo 2, and alot of the players who enjoyed Halo 2 through MLG in the past years might be upset to see things changed alot.



Can you name one person who enjoyed halo 2 more than halo 1? Any move towards halo 1 imo is a smart one.

[SnaKKer]

In regards to the maps tho, they cant take cues directly from what made the h1 maps good and apply that directly to h3. They won't, but they should. MLG needs to take this kind of thing into account as well. Look at the best h1 maps... they had advantageous positions, but there was NEVER an incentive to stay there.

Top Blue is the best spot on HH, but there is not a SINGLE weapon up there, nothing.
Green room is the best spot on Dammy, there is not ONE weapon (AR ammo) or advantage in that room.
Chilly didnt really have an advantageous position but there were 3+ entrances into every room (I'll touch on that in a sec). But every advantage was spread out or was put in vulnerable positions. Same with rocket in dammy, priz, hh, etc. Always in a place you would NEVER want to stay.

Exactly, putting snipers on towers where people can pick them up and start killing just contributes to the problem. It give the team holding sniper on Guardian an advantage, but like you mentioned about Chilly, there are so many ways in there, it's only a matter of time before any setup there gets broken. You get lulled into a false sense of security having that power weapon and that little corner of the map. Like what Nasty and Hitzel did with their Exile map, putting good powerups and weapons in other, contestable parts of the map helps the flow of the game and punishes people for holing up in a corner and trying to survive a siege. Smart teams would avoid getting trapped in sniper tower with the maps the way they are now, but editting the maps to give people incentive and purpose for moving around the map can only breed better games.

H1 maps had balancing elements. Alsmot every OS spawn in h1 had a PR close to it. Ladder up to OS level in priz, right outside os in chilly, pr and pp on both sides of OS in dammy, the original guys thought all this stuff out- its clear. Thats why h1 could not have been an "accident." They never put shotties in choke points... They put snipes in choke points like chilly hallway. THat whole idea went out the WINDOW for h3. THey put one of 4 instakill short range weapons at every choke point, blind corner and lift exit in the game. They put advantages in advantageous positions. There was not an OS and snipe and shotgun at top blue in hh... yet why is there at snipe tower on guardian??? you get that spot and all the things that make it better. SO terribly thought out. Priz had camo rocks at the bottom of the map and it was great. You wanted to get them and MOVE up top.

Another great point that I haven't thought about. Pairing up two weapons near each other that can counter the other can lead to some great confrontations. Throw in a powerup on the other side of the map that can beat both of them, but lose to the rockets, and you're starting to get a map that requires people to think strategically about not only WHERE they are moving, but with the timers, they have to think about WHEN, and if there are pros/cons about being in Room X or Hallway Y due to their place on the map and the weapons around them, then you have to think about WHY you are going there.

There should not be advantages in advantageous positions. Make people MOVE.

That's really what it boils down to, well said.

It's by far the best guardian map I've played yet. Yesterday I played some 2v2's with Shockwave on it. By halfway through the first game he ever played on it, we were already reminding each other that power-ups were up, using advanced strategy with the teleporter to break snipe tower, and controlling the hell out of every rocket spawn. We were never camping in one spot during the entire game, and actually spent most of the game across the map from each other.

It was amazing because it promoted flow with numerous power-up spawns, a reasonable weapon to be controlled, sniper battles that allowed both sides a sniper so that it was a normal weapon instead of a power weapon, and a teleporter that sped up combat and made battles more dynamic.

It'll be up on my fileshare soon, but the point is: Halo 1's rotational style of controlling power-ups is better. End of story. Do it.

I am a big fan of Exile. From the several 4v4s we played on there, not only was it a great, competitive map, but it was a heck of alot of fun. I've been playing alot of zombies and big team since H3 came out, because I just haven't been having fun playing these cut-and-dry 'MLG' games where one team sets up and the other throws themselves against the wall over and over like waves on a beach. But Exile, and other maps from some guys here are a great start in opening up these maps and encouraging people to move around and be proactive in their strategies.

I have only one question for this group. Why NOT use the laser. Has it been demed to easy to use? It seems like it has the best concept of any power weapon in the halo franhcise. Powerful but tough to use. I feel like people think it is too powerful because they use it with a motion sensor or on huge maps like valhalla. I mean standing out in the open charging the weapon is suicide especially on a small map without radar. So charging it behind cover requires you to know where your target is through communication or just having seen the target without the target seing you. Then you must time leaving cover and aiming and the shot.

I am a huge fan of the laser. It's the perfect weapon for a competitive environment for these reasons - first, it's easy for someone to pick it up, stand around, and get kills on unsuspecting victims, second, in a good, competitive game, it gets very hard to use, and you have to really know what you are doing to do well with it, and third, you can get lucky. 'Easy to use, difficult to master' is, in my opinion, the number one mantra for any competitive game/sport/anything. More laser, please.

EMULATION IS BAD.

I disagree with trying to make H3 more like H2, AND with trying to make it like H1.
I disagree with trying to make H3 more like Quake, AND with trying to make it more like R6V.

H3 has to be addressed on its own merits. It is a fast-pasted game, with a wide variety of weapons, that are dominant in a wide variety of settings. It is a team-based game, where communication, team-shooting, and strategy are the keys to victory.

Well, I agree we should look at every game and judge what works and what doesn't, but two months into the lifespan of Halo 3, I think we are starting the right way. Everyone looked at Forge and the vast control we have over gametypes and wanted to recreate a H1 feel. That quickly didn't work, and so MLG and everyone goes to a Halo 2 style, and we are seeing what is/isn't working there, and over the next months we are going to see a gradual evolution of the gametypes and maps, just like in Halo 2. I am fully confident that we are going to get a great patch from Bungie that is going to fix some issues and I am hopeful that we can incorporate a couple of the new maps into competitive play.

I think Halo 3 should be addressed on its own merits, but we have to start by comparing it to its predecessors to really capture what those are.

Not that I meant to not question anything before the first event. Of course suggestions are great now so they can get all the feedback they need. But my point was to not be all "MLG IS STUPID THEYRE MAKING H2!!1" right now cause this is just as much experimentation at this point as an all laser CTF would be. This is NOT what is going to be used at tournaments was my point. Give all kinds of feedback, great, but dont call Anakin and nexy stupid for making these the way they are. It's just testing for the most part. If they are still like this at the first event, thats when you can start calling names and being beligerent if you truly hate them. They have the best intentions and they dont want this to be h2 any more than anyone else does. THey just want to be sure the best team will win. I agree h3 needs to be it's own game. H2 worked in the context of h2, h1 worked in the context of h1 and h3 will be the same, hopefully.

I am just hoping that the bulk of the gametypes and maps are nailed down by the time we get to a first MLG tournament. Tweaking minor things throughout the year is going to happen, and that's fine, and the introduction of new maps will require all this thinking all over again, but hopefully by then we will have a strong sense about what defines Halo 3 and the best way that MLG can create a strong, competitive, and fun environment for people to play in. Once we have all this stuff that we are talking about, the very core of what Halo 3 is and what a good map and gametype looks like, I think the actual design of the maps will all fall into place.

Can you name one person who enjoyed halo 2 more than halo 1? Any move towards halo 1 imo is a smart one.

Sure, all those people who never played competitive Halo 1. Just like Bungie got to the point where they had to make a game enjoyable for everyone and shunned the balanced, minimalist style they took with H1, I am a little worried that MLG might avoid the big changes necessary to make Halo 3 the best game it can be in order to please the majority of people who have grown used to the 'MLG' style of play that we saw in H2 and are now seeing replicated in H3.

[chaosTheory_s3]

SnaKKer is my hero.

Great points on everything.

And yea fiftyfootorange, sorry to tell you, but I'd say the vast majority of this forum enjoys h2 more than they enjoy h1 if only because they are better at h2. Oh well.

This is probably the best thread in the relatively short history of the Halo 3 forum at mlgpro.com.

[Reanimated]

This is probably the best thread in the relatively short history of the Halo 3 forum at mlgpro.com.

hands down, normally i dont bother reading in the halo 3 forums because it seems like it is just litered with complaints about the game and basically the same thing over and over, but i saw this thread and read through it all and it has so many good ideas that would vastly help improve the way halo 3 is played. I agree with almost everything in this thread and it would be nice if mlg would implament some of the ideas in here to thier v3

[MLG_Rico_Suave]

This is the best thread I have ever read on these forums, everyone has had something constructive to say. I think that a game that always has teams moving, teamshooting and communicating constantly is the best direction in which to take the game, and its what makes the game much more fun. So whatever settings encourage this syle of play I encourage.

and Nasty I wan to download that map so hurry up and put it in the fileshare.

[Uhh Negative]

I think the map that needs the biggest improvement is Construct. It has so much potential but there's simply no reason to be on the bottom of the map except in KOTH. Every Construct game consists of: spawn and find the closest way to the top of the map, hold top of map, and if you die and respawn on bottom then just lift up to top and continue playing. I think the sniper needs to spawn at the bottom of the map along with maybe a powerup. Its really hard to know what will make this map work.

Also, I believe that Foundry will be a really great map for MLG. I can't wait to see really creative people make really fun and interesting map variants.

[dan91bauer]

http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3110438#post3110438

Check this thread out please. Twisted Bullet and I re-did MLG's v2 versions of Construct and Guardian using the philosphy that we've been discussing in this very thread.

[Uhh Negative]

http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3110438#post3110438

Check this thread out please. Twisted Bullet and I re-did MLG's v2 versions of Construct and Guardian using the philosphy that we've been discussing in this very thread.
I don't see how just moving the sniper to the second level orange lift and adding rockets is really going to change the way that the map is played.

[CRedO]

more power weapons=more movement around the maps

[dan91bauer]

I don't see how just moving the sniper to the second level orange lift and adding rockets is really going to change the way that the map is played.

In Construct's current state, there is very minimal movement. With how we set up the sniper and the rockets, they are in a position of high risk and promote movement around the map because where most teams set up, they would have to move from those spots to acquire the weapons of power.

Also, believe it or not, the entire map and I mean the entire map gets used. There are areas of the map that actually open up to good shooting lines, escape routes, etc.

[Uhh Negative]

In Construct's current state, there is very minimal movement. With how we set up the sniper and the rockets, they are in a position of high risk and promote movement around the map because where most teams set up, they would have to move from those spots to acquire the weapons of power.

Also, believe it or not, the entire map and I mean the entire map gets used. There are areas of the map that actually open up to good shooting lines, escape routes, etc.
Hmm, I might have to convince some friends of mine to trying out this map.

[190 Proof]

Not that I meant to not question anything before the first event. Of course suggestions are great now so they can get all the feedback they need. But my point was to not be all "MLG IS STUPID THEYRE MAKING H2!!1" right now cause this is just as much experimentation at this point as an all laser CTF would be. This is NOT what is going to be used at tournaments was my point. Give all kinds of feedback, great, but dont call Anakin and nexy stupid for making these the way they are. It's just testing for the most part. If they are still like this at the first event, thats when you can start calling names and being beligerent if you truly hate them. They have the best intentions and they dont want this to be h2 any more than anyone else does. THey just want to be sure the best team will win. I agree h3 needs to be it's own game. H2 worked in the context of h2, h1 worked in the context of h1 and h3 will be the same, hopefully.

Quoted for great justice.

Proof

[ZRDragoon]

I definitely think the gameplay should work more like being forced to travel around maps so they don't get killed by powerups and weapons.

[SnaKKer]

I don't see how just moving the sniper to the second level orange lift and adding rockets is really going to change the way that the map is played.

You've just gotta try it to really understand how much better it is. In the 5-10 games I played on that map and TWISTED's Guardian, there was almost zero camping and barely any standing still at all. It really forces people to move around the map and have a changing game plan, not grabbing top pink and hanging out. The drop spawns really bring so much to the game. It's a whole new map and plays so much better than the MLG v2 one. Even though the weapons are very similar, it's all about where they are placed and how they spawn.

[chaosTheory_s3]

This thread is simply not allowed to die.

[dan91bauer]

Anyone given thought to removing powerups all together till Bungie patches the game that allows the power ups to drop on a timer like CE?

As of right now, if someone picks up a powerup, you don't know if they have it or when they got it, or when it's coming back unless you or someone on your team picked it up and set the timer.

[SnaKKer]

Anyone given thought to removing powerups all together till Bungie patches the game that allows the power ups to drop on a timer like CE?

As of right now, if someone picks up a powerup, you don't know if they have it or when they got it, or when it's coming back unless you or someone on your team picked it up and set the timer.

I think the powerups should stay for now. Not being exactly sure when they spawn just means you have to be paying more attention and move around so you can see/hear it when it spawns, but that can also promote people just camping out and waiting for it if they think it is close, BUT if you put it in a high traffic, contestable area, it makes it disadvantageous for anyone to hang out there too long.

I've been thinking about powerups and how people don't like the default OS, and the various options we have with the custom powerup. I am starting to like the default OS more and more, because as I have been thinking about how I play with the OS, I really lose focus of my team play and start going Rambo so as not to 'waste' my OS. Suffice to say I got smashed alot when H3 first came out because I didn't realize the new OS was weaker, so when I charged in a room with 2-3 guys I got killed pretty fast. In previous Halo games I treated the OS like a license to kill and would put myself in bad situations just because I had more shields. Now maybe this is just me being dumb, but I know other people play that way too. Having only one extra layer forces you to consider alot of factors:

When to pick it up: As soon as it spawns, for an attack
Why pick it up: About to die, getting ready for a rush, making a rush
What to do with it once I have it: Charge in and tank, be a bullet magnet decoy for a sniper, etc

Having only one layer of shield weakens the OS, but also makes what you do with that extra layer that much more important. Spawning the OS on a timer will help, so hopefully that will be in the next update, so even though a team can do without getting that OS, smart players will get alot out of that layer.

I'm not so sure about what I think about camo right now. I know I like it in big team games so I can grab it, run for the flag, and make an elusive escape, but it might be too strong in an MLG game. It is a very thorough camouflage, and I know I have trouble seeing the guy most of the time. On MM it's a bit easier, seeing him on radar, but even then I've been looking straight at him and not known it. Without that radar in MLG, camo can wreck a team if they aren't careful, so I think if there is a camo on the map, it needs to be treated like a power weapon more so than the OS and spawn on a longer timer. Having a set timer for that will help a bunch too.

Having OS spawn every minute is probably too much, but OS on 90 seconds and Camo on 3 minutes wouldn't be bad. Maybe that's the way it is now, I haven't memorized all the MLG times so I'm speaking in ignorance here, but I was talking to TWISTED and danbauer about their maps yesterday, and they have power weapons spawn together every few minutes, and it mixes things up like the beginning of the game - do I send my whole team to guarantee I get the sniper, but surrender the rockets, do we split up and think we can get both, etc. These are the kind of on-the-go decisions that make competition great and separate good teams from bad, so I like to see those kind of decisions built into the fabric of the map.

One example for OS that I have seen work well is putting it right in the middle of Guardian. A dumb player will see it and run out there, and either get killed on the way or lose the OS getting back to cover. To really get the most out of it, a team has to get control of the map long enough to get out there, and then that guy has to immediately know what he is going to do with his OS. Are we charging, are we sitting back, when does the next power weapon spawn, etc. Again, it's another choice the player has to make that can breed good competition. I like Guardian fine without OS, I'm just thinking.

Now custom powerups are pretty interesting, but I have yet to play a game where the custom isn't a 3X OS or a speed boost. I'm really interested in the 'quad damage' idea, and maybe making players twice as powerful but lose half their shield for 20-30 seconds. Put that in the middle of the map and you have another choice - do I run in, guns blazing, and hope to get lucky, or do I sit back and try to pick people off? Again, I haven't played with this, so it might be completely broken, but I'm just glad that we have these kind of options and can discuss these scenarios.

I'm surprised, I didn't think I had this much to say about powerups. Great topic.

[Hitzel_89]

I was messing around with "quad damage" types of powerups not too long ago. The best one we could come up with was 200% damage and no shield regen for 60 seconds (with 30 seconds, the loss of shield regen didn't kick in hard enough. Besides, 30 seconds isn't that long in a Halo 3 game). What I was trying to create with the powerup was something that was an asset to a player at first, but eventually became a detriment. Theoretically, good players could keep the powerup from becoming a detriment much longer than a bad player could because a good player could avoid being shot. A bad player would lose his sheilds, and then the powerup would be hurting him more than helping him. The problem with the powerup was that it seemed to make players think as individuals, not as part of a team.

Thinking back on it, I'm not sure why none of us tried to use it as a teamshooting tool from the start. I think that if I had tested it longer, people would have gotten over their first impressions and started using it as a teamshooting tool. We'd probably have to make it last 30 seconds (damn Bungie for not putting in 45 seconds) and change the sheild settings.

I really want to see a damage powerup made and working.

[Hitzel_89]

I promise cT, I didn't mean to kill this thread =(

[dan91bauer]

I was thinking this morning of ways to perhaps help create more movement in Halo 3. I'm kind of thinking back to my old Quake days. I used to train with a friend of mine in CAL, he was going to CPL for Q4 and he and I used to train together. I basically was his punching bag so to speak. He had everything down on a timer, rockets, the rocket ammo, the mega health, the railgun, railgun ammo, etc. One of the unique things about Quake and most games like it, like Painkiller for example, is that the fight is not so much just fragging the other guy, it's about fragging him by preventing him from picking those weapons up. Your main objectives in a quake match is get double stacked, get rockets, get railgun, and get all the ammo. The other weapons on map are helpers for when you DONT have those specific weapons or armor.

In Halo CE, I remember doing those kinds of strategies. I used to LAN at my friends house every weekend and we'd be playing Prisoner and Hang'em high, and I used to play with my sound pretty loud. What cracked me up was when my other friends would always yell and get frustrated because they heard me pick the camo up on Hang'em and Pris all the time. They rarely ever got to pick it up. They knew when it was respawning but so did I, so in essence, it became like a mini-quake duel, me preventing my friend from ever getting it and I always having it and having that power. I also had the rockets most of the time but there were times when they just let me have the rockets so that they could use them as bait to 3sk me across the map and such.

What I saw in Halo 2 was that the quak-ish/CE feel was totally lost. The weapons would only respawn based on whether the weapon was completely emptied out and dropped. Like, Beaver Creek rockets, they only spawn if the player drops them, otherwise he can manage to keep them and they will never respawn the entire game. I just hate that. I know there was strategy involved in that but in a way, it just didn't seem as deep and competitive as CE's timers were.

Here in H3, we pretty much have the ability to put everything on timers except for the powerups. I wish the powerups had timers because then we could see some more unfolding gameplay using them but right now, it's like one team grabs the powerup, and they're the only ones that know when it's going to respawn again.

Twisted and I have forged some maps to try to make the power weapons act exactly like Halo CE. When we do that, it really does promote constant movement. I catch myself knowing exactly when "x" weapon is going to spawn but because I'm waiting for it, the other team knows it's coming too and it just becomes a huge battle for that one weapon.

Halo 2 seemed like a battle for setups and Halo CE seemed like a battle for weapons rather than setups. What do you guys think H3 is? Is it a battle for setups, weapons or both? Can your uber setup defeat anyone who gains power weapons? Can we design maps where setups only work if the power weapons are in that specific team's control?

I would love to see moving setups. What I mean by that is that a team constantly moves in a unit of just raw fire power. Anywhere on the map, they become a threat, not just one single place. I think that unique power weapon placement can encourage that style of play.

Look at Hang'em high. Rockets were in the open and you had to travel up and around that ramp to get to them, if you were near the camo side. It was a place of high risk but high reward. Even prisoner. Rockets were in the bottom mid, directly OPEN to everyone to see you getting them. If you wanted OS, you had to travel way up top and take the time to get it. It was just constant movement on that map. Snipers were way up top on the sides but didn't have the best lines to shoot from in their spawn positions.

I just think weapons should be placed in the weakest spots possible and weapons like snipers should be respawning every 1:00 to 1:30. Stronger instant kill type weapons like the Rocks should spawn longer. It's just something I think will develop a new level of play based off the old school way of playing.

[SnaKKer]

I was thinking this morning of ways to perhaps help create more movement in Halo 3. I'm kind of thinking back to my old Quake days. I used to train with a friend of mine in CAL, he was going to CPL for Q4 and he and I used to train together. I basically was his punching bag so to speak. He had everything down on a timer, rockets, the rocket ammo, the mega health, the railgun, railgun ammo, etc. One of the unique things about Quake and most games like it, like Painkiller for example, is that the fight is not so much just fragging the other guy, it's about fragging him by preventing him from picking those weapons up. Your main objectives in a quake match is get double stacked, get rockets, get railgun, and get all the ammo. The other weapons on map are helpers for when you DONT have those specific weapons or armor.

Well so far, Halo 3 has strayed away from having any weapons on map that people use until they get a better one. Part of that is Bungie's fault, for making weapons like the AR too strong and the PR too weak, so the options for weapons we can put on the map and maintain a skill-based competitive environment are pretty slim. That's why most of these maps are all BRs/Carbines, with a sniper/rocket/laser/shotgun spread out somewhere.

Halo 2 seemed like a battle for setups and Halo CE seemed like a battle for weapons rather than setups. What do you guys think H3 is? Is it a battle for setups, weapons or both? Can your uber setup defeat anyone who gains power weapons? Can we design maps where setups only work if the power weapons are in that specific team's control?

I think Halo 3 has to be a combination of both. You shouldn't be able to win just by locking down part of the map with BRs, and you shouldn't be able to win by running around with rockets and spawn killing. Just like the maps should be balanced in how they play, the gameplay itself needs to be a balance between map and weapon control. The end goal of every team should be to get all the best weapons and get to the best place on the map, but we should design maps to counter that and make it so you have to really dominate the game to be able to get that control. If a team does get that kind of control, we have to give the other team weapons and powerups to give them a chance take out the leading team. I don't want Lockout situations where once a team get the sniper and sword in the tower, the game is basically over. It should require alot of skill and team work to gain both map and weapon control, and it should take alot of skill and teamwork to maintain that control.

Depending on the map, I can think of scenarios where a great setup was unbreakable regardless of the weapons the other team had, i.e. BR tower on Lockout. I think we should aim for a Midship style of map where there are strong positions, but they do have weaknesses and have to work hard to keep control of that area. Obviously I don't want to give power weapons too much control over setups, but I think there needs to be checks and balances between them. I don't like the idea of setups that only work if you have a power weapon, I think a team should be able to move around the map and set up in a variety of places, even if they only have BRs. A rocket or sniper will strengthen these positions, and there are setups that are better for a sniper than others, but you shouldn't need a sniper to control that area.

I would love to see moving setups. What I mean by that is that a team constantly moves in a unit of just raw fire power. Anywhere on the map, they become a threat, not just one single place. I think that unique power weapon placement can encourage that style of play.

I agree, I'm a huge fan of moving teams rather than static setups.

[THE_GLADIAT0R1]

After playing the v2 maps over the span of at least 25+ custom games on them, I'm starting to notice something and I'd like to see what the over-all communitie's feel is about this. Does anyone think that we're repeating Halo 2 with Halo 3? What I mean by this is that maps like Guardian and Construct in v2 seem to be exact replicas of H2-style gameplay.

This game playing being the focuse of grabbing a single power weapon on the map and then setting up shop someplace on the map, typically a control point of some kind where a team can spread out and then basically sit there for the duration of the game never having to worry about anything else other than staying there and shooting players off from coming near them. This is like the ol' Lockout TS strat. Grab sniper, head to BR tower, setup library, BR3, BR2, etc. It's basically game over from there....sometimes.

I look at Halo CE and I see that there was a lot more going on in the maps/games themselves.

Take for instance, Prisoner. It's a 3-4 lvl map. Up top, it's got two snipers and an OS. The bottom has a rocket and camo. The map was constant control for a team to handle.

What about Damnation? 2 snipers, and a camo that spawns top side of the map near a sniper. Bottom portion of the map has a rocket and an OS that's at a high risk to grab.


I dunno, it just seems like there's not much to control on these maps right now in H3 other than having a good setup on a specific map and then sitting there and team-shooting the attacking team coming to invade your setup. That's basically just like H2 in my opinion. Is that the direction we want to go with Halo 3?

I understand that H3 has a lot of randomness just as much or more that H2 has but I think with Forge, and some key powerup choices and weapons, we can really move past the H2 style of play but I dunno if that's what MLG or the community wants to do.

It would be interesting to see what some Pros think of H3 and what game they favor more, H2-style or CE-style.

It seems like that CE-style involved several more factors of play than H2 did. You had weapon control, power up control, map control, etc.

H2-style depending on the map, seemed like it was just general map control to defend your own team's setup wherever they were setup on the map with a few power weapons thrown into the mix to control.

thoughts anyone? Can H3 ever be close to CE-style or is that something we don't want to go back to?

Halo 3 by it self was boring it was to slow(more reasones but this is the main one). Now its way more faster and fun like halo 2.