Competitive Level Design Guide - From a Quake 3 Perspective

[lateralus139]

http://www.promode.org/wiki/index.php/Competitive_Level_Design_Guide

I just recently got back into playing Quake 3 Arena (thanks gamers corner) and I found this guide to making competitive balanced levels for use In Challenge Pro Mode Arena, a Q3A mod. This is probably THE BEST source of information I have ever seen about map making all in one place.

Don't let the fact that it's for a different game fool you. The way they break down level design and weapon placement is directly applicable to Halo 3.

This should be required reading for anybody looking for insight on how to make competitive maps. Be warned though very long, very detailed read.

Edit: If the above link isn't working try this one - http://www.goodstuffmaynard.com/portfolio/other/cdg/index.html - thanks lNovak

[fanatic66]

+rep

It was defiantly a good read and had helpful advice for forgers (despite it being about Quake 3 maps).

[MLG_KonArtist]

2 hours later-- great read. People just need to keep in mind that forge does have some serious limitation with budget and itams. I know that my maps would be much different if I could do anything I wanted. Love the part with his line drawing of his map layout. That's how I start.

[Fritzster]

That is good information - and is bookmarked. A translation to Halo 3 game mechanics can be seen with a lot the content and is well written.

Thank you

[Baron Saturday]

Great find, it makes me want a better map editor.

[Zanno]

this is definitely a good read, i considered posting it but there's a lot of information in there that is actually taken for granted by anyone reading as an outsider to quake

with the lone exception of ctf, virtually all *competitive* quake maps are asym room based maps, and primarily designed in a way to make the most powerful weapon, the railgun, as weak as possible. a map like midship or warlock wouldn't work at all in quake, lockout might for 1v1 but would be too open for 4v4. when they talk about atriums, they mostly mean a room that connects to the middle of the map somehow, so you could technically consider lockout a quad atrium map. top and bottom mid are a lot different in quake, and are more or less uncontrollable compared to how players lock down the mid sections of halo maps.

weapon placement is a lot different, in terms of game value the power weapons are on par with quad and megahealth. in quake power weapons are an issue of "why don't you have one?", in halo you run around with just a BR for the vast majority of the game.

[dan91bauer]

One of the biggest issues I see with Halo 3 is that it limits evasion tactics from the flawed map designs. If you look at these CPMA maps, they offer all kinds of evasion routes to take. In otherwords...because of Quake 3 gameplay...you can rocket jump at any time pretty much and be at a level 3 where as before you were on level 1...and that's evading your enemy. The teleports also make for evasion as well. But when looking at Halo 3, this isn't CPMA or Quake...so you have to look back and prior Halo games and think...what made those maps work so well?

It's simple, evasion tactics were designed into the maps.

I used this example in my map's thread on this same forum. Midship has all kinds of evasion opportunities that most of these new Foundry maps do not.

Each base in Midship has a top and bottom. The tops have 4 possible outs or ins. The bottoms of the bases have 3 possible outs or ins. Carbine side has multiple levels, and the corner bubbles provide for evasion as well. Anyone remember hopping on top of the bubbles to fake someone out and take their aim off you?

Think about Carbine 2. If you're at Carbine 3 and you know someone is under you....you predict that there are 3 possible ways they can get out...the two sides...and then the front middle window that drops down into bottom mid. You can also attack Carbine 3 from various ways...two ways from the front climbing up the front walls, both side ramps...and the bubble corners, that is SIX POSSIBLE POINTS OF ENTRY ONTO CARBINE SIDE!

Look at Pink tower. Another example of evasion built into the design of that part of the map. Pink 2 has 3 ways out. Pink 3 has 4 ways of entry...two front walls (one on each side of the pink 2 doorway) and the two side points from the ramps leading to pink tower.

Pink 1 has multiple paths.

All this stuff ties together and makes for a tactical evasion map where evasion skills by the player can be used. I don't see this on any of the Foundry maps at all. That includes the two MLG supported maps: Onslaught and Amp. I don't see it on the highly popular Lockdown, nor do I see it in other people's maps.

Also on our latest Walshy episode...which should be coming out soon, he said that he would like to see more people use the ENTIRE room of Foundry....not just some square box. He mentioned using L-shape maps...using both rooms in the back...using the entire MAP and placing objects accordingly...etc...

The main thing though is that people need to focus on creating evasion routes within the maps. XL-HYPE is a perfect example because it uses that design.

Each base has multiple ways to get out...just like Midship. The bottom portion of the bases are practically the same as Midship.

The side points feature properties that allow for multiple levels of combat and evasion.

That Wiki talks about it right here:

"Multiple Routes
Players can now make intelligent decisions as to which routes they will and will not take. This allow for much more strategy since it will make the players have to predict which route their opponent has taken at any given moment. It also allows for new gameplay opportunities such as ambushes and route cut-offs."

[Mephisto]

i started something like that for h3:
http://www.mlgpro.com/wiki/index.php/H3_Competitivemap

i asked for peoples help but nobody seems interested

[sendernode]

awesome find - must read for anyone interested in map design

[Zanno]

One of the biggest issues I see with Halo 3 is that it limits evasion tactics from the flawed map designs. If you look at these CPMA maps, they offer all kinds of evasion routes to take. In otherwords...because of Quake 3 gameplay...you can rocket jump at any time pretty much and be at a level 3 where as before you were on level 1...and that's evading your enemy. The teleports also make for evasion as well. But when looking at Halo 3, this isn't CPMA or Quake...so you have to look back and prior Halo games and think...what made those maps work so well?

It's simple, evasion tactics were designed into the maps.

I used this example in my map's thread on this same forum. Midship has all kinds of evasion opportunities that most of these new Foundry maps do not.

Each base in Midship has a top and bottom. The tops have 4 possible outs or ins. The bottoms of the bases have 3 possible outs or ins. Carbine side has multiple levels, and the corner bubbles provide for evasion as well. Anyone remember hopping on top of the bubbles to fake someone out and take their aim off you?

Think about Carbine 2. If you're at Carbine 3 and you know someone is under you....you predict that there are 3 possible ways they can get out...the two sides...and then the front middle window that drops down into bottom mid. You can also attack Carbine 3 from various ways...two ways from the front climbing up the front walls, both side ramps...and the bubble corners, that is SIX POSSIBLE POINTS OF ENTRY ONTO CARBINE SIDE!

Look at Pink tower. Another example of evasion built into the design of that part of the map. Pink 2 has 3 ways out. Pink 3 has 4 ways of entry...two front walls (one on each side of the pink 2 doorway) and the two side points from the ramps leading to pink tower.

Pink 1 has multiple paths.

All this stuff ties together and makes for a tactical evasion map where evasion skills by the player can be used. I don't see this on any of the Foundry maps at all. That includes the two MLG supported maps: Onslaught and Amp. I don't see it on the highly popular Lockdown, nor do I see it in other people's maps.

Also on our latest Walshy episode...which should be coming out soon, he said that he would like to see more people use the ENTIRE room of Foundry....not just some square box. He mentioned using L-shape maps...using both rooms in the back...using the entire MAP and placing objects accordingly...etc...

The main thing though is that people need to focus on creating evasion routes within the maps. XL-HYPE is a perfect example because it uses that design.

Each base has multiple ways to get out...just like Midship. The bottom portion of the bases are practically the same as Midship.

The side points feature properties that allow for multiple levels of combat and evasion.

That Wiki talks about it right here:

"Multiple Routes
Players can now make intelligent decisions as to which routes they will and will not take. This allow for much more strategy since it will make the players have to predict which route their opponent has taken at any given moment. It also allows for new gameplay opportunities such as ambushes and route cut-offs."bing bing bing

i am *****ing about this all the time. it's why you can't get your shield back on amp. onslaught is marginally better in this regard, bottom mid and the bases give you options, A and B really don't.

[StylishRogue]

nice find.

Great read.

[chaosTheory_s3]

In agreement with a recent PM about this thread, I'm gonna say this is relevant and compelling enough to warrant a sticky, for now.

[Phaazon]

sweet more suggestions on how to make that sweet map i've been putting off forever

[BadBall3r]

I think someone should show this to Bungie =P

[Jackass_Jon]

I love this thread, and defintely an amazing topic. But i think it should defnitely be taken with a grain of salt. The core mechanics of H3 and Quake 3 are very different. Meaning, some ideas here are good on basic elements of a mpa, just make sure you tune the map towards H3's eninge.

[INovaK]

The link in the first post doesn't work anymore, but I think I might've found another version of it:

http://www.goodstuffmaynard.com/portfolio/other/cdg/index.html

[theseventhstar]

It works for me now. Maybe too many of us were going to it and the site was down for bandwith reasons. :D

Anyways, that was a good read and pretty interesting. I just downloaded the Quake 4 demo and played a 1v1 with some kid that was really bad, but it was fun. The map we played on was really cool. I noticed that in order for me to get the armor, I had to go all the way to the top level, then jump down onto the boxes- which is good in my opinion.

I say, if we can't make Halo 3 more like 1 or 2, we up the speed, lower the gravity, and try to get a faster-style game play like Quake and Unreal Tournament. We should add more weapons, but place them in hard to reach areas or open areas. More custom power-ups, overshields, and damage amplifiers in hard to reach areas too. I'm sure none of this would work, but I'd give it a try. :-?

[UnknOWNBAMF]

I know nobody has posted in this in a long time, but I see a BRAND NEW wind coming into the H3 world because of Sandbox. The possibilities for LARGE room based asyms on both the box and in the bubble seem like LEGIT possibilities for Halo to take off in a different direction.
Here are my thoughts:
Firstly, I want someone to make an EXACT remake of one of the maps that was designed in this thread in Quake, and then tinker with the game settings to up speed and increase damage allowed to take. I would love to see how fast paced things can become and turn more into Quake or UT3 style fighting, especially 1v1.

Now before I get flamed for posting my ideas of trying out a new way to use the H3 system and mimic Quake or UT3, understand that I'm just being a bit abstract because I'm bored and my mind is all over the place; food, women, school, MONSTER, basketball, and halo :P

I think this could be very interesting INDEEDY :)

[dan91bauer]

Asymmetrical maps are awful for H3. The BR shoots too slow and it takes too many shots to kill someone, and we can't put powerups on timers.

Symmetrical is the way to go just like it was in H2.

- Beaver Creek
- Midship
- Warlock
- Sanctuary


Lockout was an awful campfest.

[Fritzster]

How about new original maps? Ever think about that?

[UnknOWNBAMF]

I wanted to expand on my thoughts a bit more of what concepts I personally (and anyone else is more than welcome to hop on-board) will be trying to design and build and test in Sandbox, and the bubble.

I went through just a few quick examples from the Quake4 Map Factory (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/)and these are on the first few pages.

*****NOTE I haven't actually played on any of these*****

Here is the first one called Hells Gate (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/deathmatch/hells-gate-649):
This makes me think it is a room based Asym
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/pg_sizz1/hells-gate-3968.jpg

This is called Cauterize (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/deathmatch/cauterize-852):
I believe I could find some inspiration from this for a nice bubble map.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/pg_sizz1/preview-4492.jpg

This is called Trebors Bomb (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/deathmatch/trebors-tomb-976):
It has that egyptian feel to it which I think the objects forgable have thier own kind of halo 3 egyptian styles. It looked cool.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/pg_sizz1/preview-4988.jpg

This is called The Chill Runs Deep (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/deathmatch/the-chill-runs-deep-1204):
Gives me another asym room based feeling.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/pg_sizz1/preview-5084.jpg

And this is called The Bouncy Map (http://www.map-factory.org/quake-4/deathmatch/the-bouncy-map-622):
idk why but i'm guessing lower gravity but I can definitely see potential for a bubble 2v2 room sym inspired here.
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/pg_sizz1/the-bouncy-map-3933.jpg




All of these maps look great and I thank their creators for doing some nice work!
You can find the authors with the links provided


EDIT:
@dan91bauer,
Now, don't fight with me because I just wanna try things out and have fun with it you know?-but I think maybe if we tried some different things out and adjusted the settings alot to mimic other great games or even make original playstyles and make stuff faster paced then new styles of competitive halo could be born, I mean there is no way the way halo is, is going to remain the same forever. Things will change and the best way to change them for the better is to try out new stuff. I mean think about it, besides basic 110 speed for MLG and 100 speed for bungie and their = damage settings, how often do you play on abstract game settings like say 150 speed @ 110 damage and increased damage resistance? I'm just saying why not teach an old dog new tricks ya know?

[dan91bauer]

You can use some ideas from Quake maps in terms of creating evasion routes for Halo maps, but you simply cannot re-create asymmetrical maps from Quake and put them into Halo.

People don't seem to understand that Halo 3 is not Halo Combat Evolved. Halo CE worked perfectly on asymmetrical maps due to the gameplay balances. Powerups were on timers, weapons were on timers, the weapons dealt more damage at a faster rate, etc... All of that gameplay was wiped off the game when H2 released. H3 is nothing more than a continuation of H2.

Therefore maps such as Midship, Warlock, and Sanctuary need to be created. I'm not saying re-create midship, but for example, if you look at Onslaught and then compare it to Hybrid, Hybrid's bases are better than Onslaughts because of the simple fact that they have an entry/exit now in the back of the base.

Symmetry is what is needed for Halo 3 and on top of that symmetry there needs to be multiple evasion routes for players to take.

Narrows is a horrible map because of its lack of evasion routes. If the map was completely forgable, I'd create a tunnely that led straight from the mohawk area down into the sniper spawn area. That would open up the map.

Pit also is horrible because it lacks evasion routes. The rocket hallway, the camo hallway, and even the sword room, all horrible. The sword room should have a doorway leading right into the bridge...that would open it up.


I'll post more about this when I get back from class.

[dan91bauer]

alright, I'm back from class.

When you look at quake maps, the best quake maps are typically the ones used in tournaments.

I will use the Phrantic map as an example.

This map has several evasion routes, and rocket jumping adds even more evasion to the game. The beauty of quake map design is that you can literally design maps with multiple levels and not worry about them because people can rocket jump. The rocket jump tactic adds evasion, and I think if Quake didn't have rocket jumping, the game would be horrible. Rocket jumping adds that level of depth to a map that can't be achieved by simply building a structure or a doorway.

In Halo, specifically Halo 3, we see a huge absence of evasion routes/paths.

Lets take for example Construct. When you're in one of the purple lift rooms, how many entry/exits are there? There are three points of entry: 1. from lobby, 2. from open or closed side, 3. from the lift.

Now lets count the exits: 1. exit to lobby, 2. exit to open or closed side. That is very limited. Imagine if next to the purple lift was a drop hole? That would add more evasion and less close-endedness.

Now if we go back and examine a map from Halo 2, Midship, let's look at just Carbine side, specifically Carbine 2.

Carbine 2's entrys: 1. coming from Red Base 2. coming from blue base 3. coming from carbine 3, 4. coming from Carbine 1 through the front window.

Carbine 2's exits: 1. to red base, 2. to blue base, 3. through front window into bottom mid or car 1.

Now lets imagine if that front window was not in Carbine 2...can you understand how bad that would be for that area of the map? Carbine 2 would basically become a death trap (it kinda already is) by limiting it basically to 1 way in and 1 way out so to speak. If someone is chasing you inside, you're not going to turn back around toward them to exit...instead you'd be FORCED to exit out the opposite side, but by that time you're probably already dead. The front window acts as an evasion option for players to take, and the attacking player has to figure out in his head within split seconds, do I follow or do I guess which way he went?

This kind of map design isn't really present in Halo 3 at all, and I've really yet to see any good foundry maps show this style of map design either.

Look at Warlock. Without Warlock's teleports, the map would be awful.

I think that looking at quake maps is a great idea, but only look to them to build your ideas and concepts for map evasion. Remember that quake is a 1v1 game, so the maps you will see will be filled with evasion routes, but dont build your entire map mirroring a quake map. Just use the evasion ideas.

[UnknOWNBAMF]

That is valid I appreciate your input +rep
I agree with evasion routes I have been waiting for the opportunity to make a death fall map with such capabilities for many routes in/out. Be sure to look @ what I cook up though, I know that I can make something work.

[dan91bauer]

That is valid I appreciate your input +rep
I agree with evasion routes I have been waiting for the opportunity to make a death fall map with such capabilities for many routes in/out. Be sure to look @ what I cook up though, I know that I can make something work.


I've actually got free time tonight (trying to take a break from Bad Company, I'm addicted since im an old Battlefield 2 player) and I'm gonna do some sketchup stuff. I suck at forge.

[IVs Syked]

alright, I'm back from class.
Imagine if next to the purple lift was a drop hole? That would add more evasion and less close-endedness.


I have thought that exact same thing! I called it a 'chute' when I was describing it to other people. It would also help the bottom of the map be used more. Similarly, there's a huge problem with top gold. You go top gold, you're going open street or closed street. Maybe, just maybe open ramp. But if you could "lift down gold lift" as I thought of it as, you would have so many more options - lift down Gold, then take a purple up, or instance. You wouldn't want to go overkill here (ie. do it for the purples OR for Gold), but it could seriously help a pretty weak map.

do I follow or do I guess which way he went?

To play devil's advocate - don't you think that encouraging players to guess adds to the randomness of the game?

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

@Dan: You can take some definite inspiration from quake maps though. I agree that in most cases a carbon copy would be horrible (cpm3a in halo :sick: ) but you can take inspiration and good geometry and use it in maps. Aerowalk for instance could definitely work with some tweaks.


Also keep in mind that not every map here is designed for fours. There are quite a few good 1v1 and 2v2 maps that came from here.

This kind of map design isn't really present in Halo 3 at all, and I've really yet to see any good foundry maps show this style of map design either.


I'll link you to some of the better designed maps you may not have seen before later as I get the impression that you don't regularly visit this section of the forums.

[dan91bauer]

I have thought that exact same thing! I called it a 'chute' when I was describing it to other people. It would also help the bottom of the map be used more. Similarly, there's a huge problem with top gold. You go top gold, you're going open street or closed street. Maybe, just maybe open ramp. But if you could "lift down gold lift" as I thought of it as, you would have so many more options - lift down Gold, then take a purple up, or instance. You wouldn't want to go overkill here (ie. do it for the purples OR for Gold), but it could seriously help a pretty weak map.



To play devil's advocate - don't you think that encouraging players to guess adds to the randomness of the game?

To your randomness comment, that's player controlled randomness, not randomness from the game. As a player in any game or even a sport, you always want to keep your opponents guessing your next move, otherwise you have zero depth. It's like in football, if I see a guy juke...how do I know which way he's going to juke?

In Halo we don't really have a good strafing mechanic, nor do we have anything that's big on individual skill like strafe jumping and rocket jumping in Quake, so the map has to support evasion tactics to be used by the players, Midship did a perfect job of this.

[carbsmith]

I have thought that exact same thing! I called it a 'chute' when I was describing it to other people. It would also help the bottom of the map be used more. Similarly, there's a huge problem with top gold. You go top gold, you're going open street or closed street. Maybe, just maybe open ramp. But if you could "lift down gold lift" as I thought of it as, you would have so many more options - lift down Gold, then take a purple up, or instance. You wouldn't want to go overkill here (ie. do it for the purples OR for Gold), but it could seriously help a pretty weak map.



To play devil's advocate - don't you think that encouraging players to guess adds to the randomness of the game?
If gold lifts were built like a Forge lift with deployable style grav lifts or mancannons, this would be entirely easy. Most of the ones in Halo 3's default maps are loud, slow teleporters for the sake of being deathtraps. I suppose for ****s and giggles you could forge Construct with two-way teleporters, if need be using some dead map space (possibly the out of map areas) to keep the timing reasonable. It doesn't have as good of sight lines and junk, but it gives you a way out. Mind you, a one way teleporter out the back would have the same effect for getting out of top gold. The lifts on Midship and Lockout were easy to drop down from multiple directions for a surprise, but even Guardian's is a bit too cramped. (and the nature of H3 CQC and Guardian weapon spawns makes it fairly suicidal)

Incidentally, you can see a token attempt at this when you're coming into Gold at the closed hole, but how often do you see that tiny thing used?


It's things like this that are probably why I really like Cold Storage. Most maps if there's a doorway, the guy walks through, you throw a grenade, and he goes back the other way to either camp or never be seen again, and if one of you makes it through the doorway the encounter is a foregone conclusion to whoever has the most shields. If someone's coming from "pink" room to rocket room on CS and I'm rocket ramp, I can chase him through the window, and if I'm in trouble I can go either window, teleporter, or jump over to main room (which thanks to the height advantage is actually possible to get away with by Strongsiding, albeit much harder on 110% damage.) Jumping to rockets or shotgun hallway might be do-able under the right circumstances. Sniper room has 2 main exits, but you have 3 routes in the hallway and can go in multiple directions out the other door with the bridge and pillars for cover, shotgun room has its 3 exits, main room has 4, and rocket room has 4. But with the shortcut filled layout you can also track them down if you predict right.

Compare that to Pit where you spend a good part of the game just hurling every grenade you can find down long, blue and training, or perhaps through sword hoping to catch someone crossing past or *gasp* pushing until you can spawn camp, then if your setup gets broken retreat back and do it again.

I wouldn't rule out asymmetrical maps, Lockout (like Ascension) was basically just a fortress for mowing people down ala Infection. There was just too easy of a height advantage. Guardian's mancannons amount to the same thing, though the grenade blocking nature of the entire snipe area and the invis door are in good part responsible for that. (grenading from mancannon landing>snipe2, snipe1>snipe2, snipe2>snipe3 are all pretty much impossible, while the opposites are all pretty easy. Same with gold side other than the blue room jump)