Base Designs/Taking Inspiration

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

Alright this is something I've noticed more lately but I really think people need to think WAY more into base design than they currently are. I mean we've sort of moved away from the onslaught bases trend a bit but everything still follows the same formula now even if it looks a lot different so I'm going to try and inspire ideas.

Right now even a lot of the "creative" maps and sketchups all have this same dynamic. 2 simplistic two tower bases with sides that wrap around and usually elevated. This obviously came from the design of onslaught which essentially came from an extremely dumbed down version of midship. Midship that had a number of subtle height differences, curving ramps, a very closed off top base, an extremely closed off bottom base, and a lift from top to bottom.

http://images.wikia.com/halo/images/thumb/d/dc/Midship.jpg/300px-Midship.jpg

Base Pic:

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/8740/midshipbluebasets8xz.png

Look how small there's essentially a window to the top base and just an opening to the bottom. Also the side bases to midship are way more dynamic than than every forge maps's with the long flat stretch across carbine side (zenith did a great job replicating this) and Pink side is overall a cooler looking version of what everyone has in their maps right now.

The thing is you seriously don't have to do maps this way, no other default two base halo map has that design yet every foundry map ever does.

Example 1 Sanctuary:
http://www.gameinformer.com/NR/rdonlyres/E5D579B6-D538-4999-8184-32E107D89B09/6680/sanctuary_overhead_done.jpg
base pic:
http://h2.halowiki.net/images/1/17/Header_Sanctuary.jpg

Sanctuary has some large ass bases with a giant ramp at the front and smaller ramps on both sides, plus there base essentially extends over a bridge sideways over to where snipe spawns with a connection to top mid. Notice how the base layout is completely different, with an overall bigger base with some cool small pillars thrown in. Also sanc has no Side bases, theres the bases and some walkways and then what's unique about it is that the focus of the map is on the center structure. A design like this seems to have seen a number of copies ranging more from bad to half decent but never great. Closest thing to playing similar seems to be goliath when the games feature "hold down the courtyard" style gameplay which feels a lot like holding down the center of sanc. It's good to draw inspiration from maps but not to copy the design, but more on that later. Anyway example 2:

Beaver/ Battle Creek:

Overhead with random scribbles on it:

http://www.halownage.com/imagehost/17465da5cba9b27.jpg

Pic of base from outside (please ignore superbounce instructions):

http://www.halo-2-glitches.com/images/beaver_creek_super-jump.jpg

I had a layout of the inner bases before but my internet crashed so **** it this time. Anyway the creek maps have a very unique design. There are two bases on either end but these bases are almost entirely closed off. There is one front entrance, two underground ramp entrances, some small windows on the sides and the all important hole in the ceiling. The hole in the ceiling allows you to drop down into the base but is too high for you to jump out of it. However you can toss the flag through this hole to someone on the outside. This is important because there are teles on the back of each base so you can toss the flag through and have someone on your team grab it and run through the tele over to your base. If you're extremely well set up you can than toss the flag to someone standing on the ceiling of your base to someone who can put the flag in for an easy cap, this leads to really dynamic and interesting flag games. You can see a great example of this being pulled off to perfection in the following video of Battle Creek ctf with TDT dominating. I recomend watching the entire thing but there's a nice 7 second flag cap at 3:40 thats particularly notable:

Oxz6cxuybmU

Neither creek maps have the now seemingly mandatory "side bases" either. Battle creek has ladders that lead up to a high point where you can grab sniper/rocks, while beaver creek has ramps that extend up to essentially the same point. Both also have a similar middle half arch which comes down into the creek and extends up where to rocks spawn. I've only really seen one foundry map attempt this style of map, it was okay but it really attempted to replicate the creek maps (it had one ugly ass center half arch made of foundry materials) rather than take some of the principles that made the map good and then designing it with foundry somewhat in mind. The map that actually plays closest to this isn't a foundry map but ssshakedown's isolation as it features similar concepts such as flags near the back bases, and flag hand off's through the base windows. Now onto example 3:

Hang Em High:

http://www.halownage.com/imagehost/17465da5cc50340.jpg

Map features multi-level bases and elevated but dangerous catwalks across the top. Once again HeH doesn't have any side bases. There are paths around the sides, while the lower section features the well known graveyards (dumpsters?). Also notable is that the bases are in the corners of the map rather than on the sides straight across from each other. Thankfully itz Nexn has taken note of the various features of hang em high and has created not one but two inspired sketchup's off of it. This is what people should be doing when creating maps, taking inspiration but now trying to directly recreate. Here's one that zonked will hopefully eventually be working on as the design looks great:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/tigaer/HangEM.jpg

And here's a symmetrical styled hang em style map designed for ctf called axis that is currently being worked on by nicka and tak:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/tigaer/CE3.jpg

Also Baron is working on a 2 base asymmetrical map with bases in the corners. I don't know whether he even though of hang em high while building it but the map is extremely original and shows overall good well though out (and extremely clean) base design
Pic:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w266/Baron_2007_2007/a.jpg

Lots more to come later on this subject...

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

Okay before I embark on the rest of this post let me elaborate on a few things. For one when you should have any sort of actual base in your map in the first place. Generally a base is good with maps designed for some type of objective play. Maps with two bases generally should be designed around 2 flag game types or something like neutral bomb. Maps with one base (and this applies less to most people actually reading this) would normally apply to something like 1 flag or attacker/defender assault. Generally when I think of good maps that use bases the bases have kind of a epic feel to them like you're completely behind enemy lines rather than just on the other side of the map. You can think beyond just 4v4 maps here and think about being in the bases of avalanche or blood gulch, or as far as mlg related goes you can think about being inside beaver creek's bases. Or thinking outside of halo something like Facing Worlds from Unreal tournament. A lot of UT maps as far as I can tell have a structure for ctf where the bases are gigantic multi room areas with an open middle in between them, hopefully more pictures will come later but heres facing worlds below. This IS the UT ctf map essentially, there are base interiors where a flag spawns but there are also several sets of teleporters that all lead to a higher point on the base.
http://www.ukdk-clan.co.uk/UT3query/pics2/DM-FacingWorlds.jpg

The other thing that goes in tandem with first part of this is that even if you're making a map primarily designed for two flag or something, the map doesn't by any means need to have bases. If you read nasty's post earlier in this thread:
Make pathways and walls and pillars and platforms and tunnels and windows and doorways, and arrange them so that some areas are more closed off and feel "base-like". That's the best way to approach it imo.
this shows a different philosophy towards two flag oriented maps. Now I'm guessing he wouldn't consider the sides of hang em high bases (I do) so keep that in mind. Now IMO you shouldn't completely avoid bases altogether (you gotta love the creek maps, which undeniably have bases) but you should consider doing something else to make you map symmetrical and balanced. A pretty good example of this would be DeathstarsOG's map Unleashed. Unleashed doesn't have any real bases, what it does have though is a series of walkways and pillars and what not to create what is a definitely solid two flag map. You should have already dl'ed it for v6 testing but if you haven't seen it heres a link to the thread so you can hopefully piece together an idea of the layout: http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=211344

Okay now onto other things. Since I realized the whole taking inspiration thing has little to do with base design as its more of a broad subject that will be separately written up for Ciabbatta's extremely useful design thread. Instead now I will talk about base design from other games (quake and unreal tournament in particular to give you a different outlook on their map design as a whole.

The way a lot of the quake maps seem to work from my limited experience them is that they are generally roomed off to some kind of large center with some interesting geometry which is usuall yconnected usually by a series of thin tunnels to the bases where the flag generally spawns somewhere near the back. Sometimes there are some smaller side rooms but the majority of the action seems to occur either in the important center or inside the base rooms. Overall the maps do have some incredibly interesting geometry which I will try and show with you with pictures (I found these awesome layout screens of every cpm ctf map) and then explain if necessary. Here's the map I've always found awesome since I first saw montage clips on it:
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/7872/quake1yz8.png (http://imageshack.us)
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/quake1yz8.png/1/w799.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img374/quake1yz8.png/1/)
This is q3wcp14 by scancode, or you can call it camper crossings. From here you can see where the flag spawns as well the set of teles on either side (A is the sender, A out is the reciever, and same with B). You can also pretty clearly distinguish the main room of the map in the center and theres a small pic of it in the bottom right corner. The map I think is four floors (it have more) but what you can see is the very center of the map contains the lowest portion where a powerup (quad damage) spawns. What is most interesting though is that on either side of the center there are giant lifts that take you up to the highest floor. The main room actually contains at least three floors alone so you can imagine the intense gameplay that goes on in that room. The map contains lifts everywhere which is an interesting element that people rarely want to realize in halo 3. And now since I really don't know of any truly popular UT ctf maps other than facing worlds I will finish this by supplying you with a number of cool pics of quake ctf maps. Enjoy, these pics are really annoying since I can't directly link them.

q3wcp9 : Spider Crossings by Scancode
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4607/quake2dy1.png (http://imageshack.us) http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/quake2dy1.png/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img178/quake2dy1.png/1/)
q3wcp2 : Cold Crossings by Scancode + Slash
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1282/quake3oj4.png (http://imageshack.us) http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/quake3oj4.png/1/w799.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img178/quake3oj4.png/1/)
q3wc2 : Desert Cemetery by Hype
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6537/quake4jw3.png (http://imageshack.us) http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/quake4jw3.png/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img178/quake4jw3.png/1/)
q3wc7 : Wizard's Manse by DD
http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/5562/quake5hx4.png (http://imageshack.us) http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/quake5hx4.png/1/w804.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img68/quake5hx4.png/1/)

If you're interested in more layout pics like this than follow this link: http://hosted.planetquake.gamespy.com/cctf/manual/overview/q3wcp2.html and just hit the sideways arrow keys to browse through.

[theseventhstar]

I made a thread that had a lot of pictures from UT and Quake maps, for asymmetrical map inspiration. I could give you the link when I find it, since it might be able to go along with this thread. No one posted in my thread though, so I stopped getting pictures, but there was a link to a site with LOTS of maps. :neutral:

[I_Knossos_I]

nice thread, i might work on a sanctuary or heh esque map once im done with playtesting amethyst and posted it

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

I made a thread that had a lot of pictures from UT and Quake maps, for asymmetrical map inspiration. I could give you the link when I find it, since it might be able to go along with this thread. No one posted in my thread though, so I stopped getting pictures, but there was a link to a site with LOTS of maps. :neutral:

I know, this is different and more geared towards creating good bases rather than general inspiration. That thread was actually good but it was hard to get info from just one picture of a map someone had never played before. I may bump it later with several pictures of of good maps with a layout description.

[theseventhstar]

I know, this is different and more geared towards creating good bases rather than general inspiration. That thread was actually good but it was hard to get info from just one picture of a map someone had never played before. I may bump it later with several pictures of of good maps with a layout description.

Yeah, I just made it so people could try to get ideas for general areas, especially for the room-based asymmetrical maps. I tried finding some maps that had interesting areas that could work in Halo 3, but the site has lots of maps from different games.

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

I finished the part about hang em high, after I get done with college stuff I'll start working on the second post. I hope this will help people approach designing their maps in a more original fashion.

[Jnoon]

Here is something I posted earlier for DaxFlowLyfe but could help most forgers in the location for their bases. and overall design to complement them

"I would not forsee this map working for flag and here is why
The location of the bases will not work for ctf because of the two entrances throug the hall. This map will be a victim of the same problems that whirlpool had in that the bases are too easy to get two because of the long hall. People just simply run through that hall every time because it is the fastest way to get to the flag. Now you say, just delete long hall.that wont work because horrid spawn trapping will result because of high tower and middle bridge. Therefore, generally,bases should mostly be put on opposite end of a map and be difficult to get to.the only map that I have seen do this right is Goliath, simply because of the strength and inentives of courtyard. If you have any further questions, pm me.
In short bases should not only be complicated, but made challenging to get to by map geometry.
Also, it seems as though that the dumpsters are the only way into the bases, add more"

also,
http://image.hazardstrip.com/ss/maps/37933.jpg

[-NaStY-]

Good post. Myself, I would simply say: don't make bases! A level isn't a combination of bases - even if you're making a symmetrical map designed for CTF, you shouldn't consider the sides bases. A "base" is a lame excuse for map design. Make pathways and walls and pillars and platforms and tunnels and windows and doorways, and arrange them so that some areas are more closed off and feel "base-like". That's the best way to approach it imo.

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

Good post. Myself, I would simply say: don't make bases! A level isn't a combination of bases - even if you're making a symmetrical map designed for CTF, you shouldn't consider the sides bases. A "base" is a lame excuse for map design. Make pathways and walls and pillars and platforms and tunnels and windows and doorways, and arrange them so that some areas are more closed off and feel "base-like". That's the best way to approach it imo.

Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at for the side of map, the sides really shouldn't be bases ever. Thats a much better way to approach it.

Jnoon isn't that an asym warsow map?

[theseventhstar]

pathways and walls and pillars and platforms and tunnels and windows and doorways

Oh my!


:D

[nicka]

Thanks for the thread lightz,
It doesn't technically have a base, but i used some of what you were sayin (and some of the concepts) in a 1v1 that i've been workin on in sketchup

[bnasty574]

You went about this the wrong way. The problem is that people are stupid. I don't even know why anyone needs this spelled out for them, but apparently they do.

Getting inspiration is great. period. HOWEVER once you stop taking inspiration and start taking entire physical creations you're a dip****. When you look at something for inspiration, you should never be saying to yourself, "Oh ok, you put this bridge here and than this ones at this angle. . ." No you **** faces. You should be saying, "Oh! Here's a design that has a dominant area with multiple entrances/exits but is very open." Something along those lines, where you are grabbing core concepts of how/why that in particular structure is built that way. I'm probably not explaining this right, but **** I hope someone understands it.

As far as idea's. Everyone needs to go run around Colossus from Halo 2.

[Mini_Beast]

Halo CE had great maps. Has anyone thought of making a Prisoner style map from Halo CE. That map was great and i would love to see it remade.

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

You went about this the wrong way. The problem is that people are stupid. I don't even know why anyone needs this spelled out for them, but apparently they do.

Getting inspiration is great. period. HOWEVER once you stop taking inspiration and start taking entire physical creations you're a dip****. When you look at something for inspiration, you should never be saying to yourself, "Oh ok, you put this bridge here and than this ones at this angle. . ." No you **** faces. You should be saying, "Oh! Here's a design that has a dominant area with multiple entrances/exits but is very open." Something along those lines, where you are grabbing core concepts of how/why that in particular structure is built that way. I'm probably not explaining this right, but **** I hope someone understands it.

As far as idea's. Everyone needs to go run around Colossus from Halo 2.

When I get around to making the second post I'm gonna elaborate on some of inspiration aspect of this, and it will make way more sense than what you just typed (even though I still understood it).

[a_Woodland_King]

I had an idea the other day that was slightly unique. Instead of square bases, use bridges and make the base a teepee-like structure(Indians?) with walls running along certain levels, with a walkway. Don't take my idea though unless you give me credit, or i'll send my army of Narnian Gnomes to gnaw on your ankles, woo.

[_TaK_]

you every going to finish this lights??

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

you every going to finish this lights??

Yeah I should have time to do this later so the overall guide makes more sense. This post is reminding self to talk about how this really only applies to two base maps (although not necessarily completely symmetrical ones), how to take inspiration from other maps, and looking at two base (CTF) map designs from Quake and UT to show a different way of thinking about ctf, as well as posting a ton of pics of good designs.

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

Sorry for the double post but the second part of this is finally up. I realized that the taking inspiration thing is kind of unrelated to base design so I'll do that separately for Ciabbatta's master thread. There should be some good inspiration within here though and although my train of thought wanders all over the place towards the end its all still good advice. Uggh that was a pain to type up.

[iM_xZonKeD]

OMG i really wish my bro didn't sell our UT3 copy for PS3. That map that you explained wit hthe lifts and the middle and all that good **** is so amazing for CTF. I played that map 5 times in a row once just because it was probably the most exciting gameplay i have seen in a while. Dude, im depressed because of how jealous i am right now. =[

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

OMG i really wish my bro didn't sell our UT3 copy for PS3. That map that you explained wit hthe lifts and the middle and all that good **** is so amazing for CTF. I played that map 5 times in a row once just because it was probably the most exciting gameplay i have seen in a while. Dude, im depressed because of how jealous i am right now. =[

The map with the lifts in the middle is a quake map though...


Are you thinking of the one with the two giant bases on either side, yeah facing worlds can be played for hours its amazing.

[iM_xZonKeD]

The map with the lifts in the middle is a quake map though...


Are you thinking of the one with the two giant bases on either side, yeah facing worlds can be played for hours its amazing.
No it's the one with a huge lift in the bases and then i thought there was one in the middle but maybe not but people use that teleporting gun thing a lot on it. Idk what it's called. I will try and look into finding it

[HITtheLIGHTZ]

No it's the one with a huge lift in the bases and then i thought there was one in the middle but maybe not but people use that teleporting gun thing a lot on it. Idk what it's called. I will try and look into finding it

Yeah I'm not sure what map you're talking about, I need to play some more ut ctf. Read the second post people please.

[bnasty574]

No it's the one with a huge lift in the bases and then i thought there was one in the middle but maybe not but people use that teleporting gun thing a lot on it. Idk what it's called. I will try and look into finding it

Nerve Center from Shadowrun? if by lift you mean elevator. . .

[iM_xZonKeD]

Nerve Center from Shadowrun? if by lift you mean elevator. . .
no its ut3.

[bnasty574]

no its ut3.

dude I know exactly which one you're talking about. The bases are like a carved out "U" and they're like gothic midship colors, and the lifts are at the very back and they're red? I'll try and find it, one sec.

EDIT: in the mean time, this map (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ_vgDavkg0)grapes

Found it: "Strident" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pW4gLlQUg4)

[Glick]

Excellent thread. Everyone who is thinking about designing or forging a map should read this before hand, even those who are experienced at doing so. There is a lot more that is put into maps then just making it look good and playable, and I'm glad to see there are some other people who recognize this.

I've been doing a lot of thinking about map design and these sort of ideas you brought up lately. Unfortunately I suck at forging and sketch up, but maybe if one of the rumors are true and one of the new maps is a bigger palette type map I can get more involved.

+rep when I can

[Jackass_Jon]

Here is something I posted earlier for DaxFlowLyfe but could help most forgers in the location for their bases. and overall design to complement them

"I would not forsee this map working for flag and here is why
The location of the bases will not work for ctf because of the two entrances throug the hall. This map will be a victim of the same problems that whirlpool had in that the bases are too easy to get two because of the long hall. People just simply run through that hall every time because it is the fastest way to get to the flag.


I don't know how/why no one has ever replied or caught this before. From my terrible knowledge of map design, this is a huge no no. Just because a route is a fast way to a base in no way means that it is bad. It just means that its a fast route. If people keep going through that one route, and either dieing or running flag successfully, that means the other team just ****ing sucks, or the rest of the map sucks meaning their is no power up/advantages/ positions to even fight for.

Bases should imo have at least 3 easy entrances, and two "others". Others can be a one way in such as a tele or drop in, or just a difficult jump/trick.