PDA

View Full Version : Forging 101. Learn the Tricks here.


DeathstarsOG
02-02-2009, 11:43 PM
FORGING 101

This thread is made to replace the current sticky made by Mephisto to bring the forge forums more up-to-date on forging tricks. Do NOT spam up this thread please so those of us that need to learn, can. If you have tricks you would like to add, please do. Most credit to this thread will go to Mephisto for his great write-up and all other contibutors.


Interlocking:

Interlocking is the means of fusing two or more objects together in order to create a smooth transition. While it is not always necessary it will aid in keep players on a smooth walking surface and stop grenades from getting lost in the cracks between seperate items. This is one of the biggest tricks used in forging. Here is a detailed explaination of how to interlock along with a video:

1. Set the "base object" for which to be merged*
2. Point at the object then press X
3. Set RESPAWN RATE to "180"
4. Set PLACE AT START to "No"
5. Back out , then press start > START NEW ROUND
6. Set an object to be merged
7. Set a duplicate "base object"
8. Point at that object, then press X twice
9. Set RUN TIME MINIMUM to match the number PLACED ON MAP (which is right above)
10. Quickly point at the orignal "base object" and set PLACE AT START to "Yes"
11. Then set the RUN TIME MINIMUM back to zero

sbZgeu50krU

The video shows very quickly of how objects are interlocked in the simplest way. For your map, make sure you use guides to interlock neatly. More on guides later.


Geomerging:

Geommerging is the act of interlocking a placable object with actuall map geometry.(Walls, floor, cieling etc.)
This element of forging is used for the exact same reason interlocking is, and that is to create geometry that flows together smoothly and doesn't eat grenades in the crevices around your map. Geomerging into the floor will help with varied heights needed for your map. There are a few different ways to geomerge. There is the "Double Tap" method, the "Save/Quit" method, and the most recent "Teardrop method". Here i'll explain all three of these methods:

Double Tap:
The double tap method is by far the quickest way of geomerging. There are usually no new rounds needed or saving/quiting involved. The object you wish to merge into the maps geometry is simply placed exactly where you want, then braced around all sides. Here is the quote by Nexn along with the video:

Originally Posted by tigaer
Been getting alot of messages on live to post a tut, so heres one
You can do it with whatever you want, I use teleporters most of the time.

1. Put the object where you want it, make sure its perfectly in the position you want it.
2. Go down to the tear drop and put you monitor right onto it and aim at it then double tap A.
If you merging it down, sender nodes (you can use fence walls, boxes, whatever) around it, 1-2 on each side spread out so the box wont shift.
If your merging it into the wall put 2-3 on each side spread out.
3. Put one receiver node ontop of each corner of the box, even more if you want so it wont go up.
4. Put your doors in the way you want the box to go in, if you want it down put it on top, the left put them in on the right side of the box.
5. Go to the tear drop on the box and double tap
Right now the box probably isnt perfectly straight, whatever side/corner isnt double tap A on that corner, it depends where you tap A on how the box will be ajusted.
6. When the box is straight delete the teleports/fence walls and your done.

yUZKH2o28h0


Save/Quit:
The save quit method is by far the most used method for accurate geomerging. The way this method works is identical to how the double tap method works. The twist here is once you grab the object hit start and you need to save it as soon as possible. You can hit "save changes" or "save as new map" however either way you do it, it needs to be done REALLY fast. You can save as new map very fast by just not re-naming it, but instead letting it auto-save. It basically just adds a new mumber to the save count such as 008 or 009. This number will continually count up as long as you keep using this method.
Saving as a new map will have it's advantages. If the result isn't good when you come back to it, you can always go back to a previous save. When using "save changes" you cannot. Learn these options before you start making an actual map.

Blood Fire's Turtorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=RSAEpNYImbQ)


Teardrop:
This method is the most recent method of geomerging to date. The basic idea of how this works is when placing an object you must use the right trigger to rotate the object. The last angle the object is rotated in using the right trigger it will keep the object locked at that angle no matter where you move the object to as long as you save and quit before letting the object go. Here is a link to explain this a little better along with pictures:
http://www.forgehub.com/forum/halo-forge-discussion/46688-geomerging-without-doors.html

Or watch the video:
TearDrop Method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS3vccBhhyQ&feature=related)

This method is best used when combined with the save/quit method. As long as you never let go of the object after grabbing it, it will stay locked at that angle. Currently, us forgers are working on algorithms to set objects up using this method. An algorthm is needed in order to brace to object your trying to teardrop in an exact spot. Very important an a symmetrical map where that geo will more than likely need to be done more than once.

Teardrop Algorithm list

Double wall ramps at box height: (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=216364)


I will add more algorithms as they are found as well. Also we are working on an algorithm to create double box ramps.


Floating Immovable Objects:

Floating objects in mid air is a very useful trick in forge. Often times you will need to use this trick to create walkways(More on this later). Only immovable objects will float forever mid-air.

1. Hold an object in mid-air anywhere, it doesn't matter where
2. Press start > SAVE CHANGES > END GAME
3. Start over, your object will be in place wherever you were holding it when you saved

Another way to do this trick is to stack a bunch of items on the floor. Get them as high as you want it then place the piece you want floating on the top. Then from the bottom up, delete everything under it and your object will stay floating. Here's a video on how to float objects:

vQeufpwP9jM


TIPS SECTION

This section is going to be a database for little tips and tricks you can learn to help your forging improve. These are the little tricks in forging that you usually pick up along the way. Please if you have some more tricks to add or video footage, please post up.


Creating Walkways:

Walkways are a high priority in forged creations. They allow you to make your map more multi-dimensional with walkways above the base floor. Walkways also help with connectivity of routes available in gameplay and can change drastically how a map flows. Here's a great video of how to make walkways using the Floating Object Trick:

MIDVxdgek5I


Eliminating the jump caused by stairs:

For some unknown reason Bungie decided to play a joke on the forge community and made stairs a different height than boxes. What happens then is you end up with a very large bump while walking DOWN the stairs. Here is a tutorial by Baron on how to fix this:

Originally Posted by Baron Saturday
I thought Id share this method I use for eliminating the jump caused when walking down stair joins, the jump can be eliminated by pushing the stairs down slightly to the same level of the boxes.

I do this by placing a wall flat on top of the box where the stairs join, while the stairs are not spawned.
I then set the box and wall not to spawn and restart the round, with the stairs spawned.
I Then secure the stairs on all sides with teles. but use weapon holders or your preferred immovable object.
Then spawn the wall and set it to spawn 10 or 20 secs into a round.
Restart round and grab the stairs before the wall spawns.
If the stairs are secured properly they should only be pushed down to the height of the box, and you will get a nice smooth motion when walking over the join and down the stairs.

ksulpP5xmaGESM

Floating Objects with Mancannons

Floating can be done in almost any fashion. This tip is to use mancannons/lifts to float objects without have to save/quit. It can be very suefull and save a bit of time while forging.

1. Start off with the object you want to float something under. Depending on how far away from the floor it is, you want to place mancannons(lifts should work too) underneath that object.
2. Next get a wall or fence wall to place underneath the floating object. The mancannon will then thrust the wall under the first object and after a few seconds will become stable.
3. Delete the mancannons and your done!

continued.....

DeathstarsOG
02-02-2009, 11:44 PM
Continuing on...

Putting Grav Lifts under the map:

Putting Gravity lifts under the map is the best way to keep them consistent and never be destroyed. They also add an incredible look to your map. I'm not going to confuse you by typing out a "how-to" for it. Instead, here's a video by Blood F1R3.

Blood F1R3's Grav Lift Tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvTcyqF2hvA&feature=related)

Geomerging Movable Object under Foundry:

Think back to the last tutorial on Gravity lifts under foundry. That is nearly the exact same way this technique is done. It works on basically every movable object you can place, even vehicles which will be shown in this video tutorial:

Geomerging Movable Objects (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrkrInlh40w&feature=related)

Teleporter Writing:

Teleporter writing is more of a ForgeHub thing to make your map look good, however it can be usefull. Basically it allows you to use the flashing lighs on a teleporter to make arrows/letters/etc. Here is another Blood F1R3 tutorial on how to create this effect.

Tele Writing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFrKK6gk98A&feature=related)

Geomerging into back hallways:

Someone asked for the tutorial on geomerging into the back halls. Here is a quick version of how to do it using fence boxes. Make sure to use as many braces as possible to get cleaner geo's while attempting this. Anything can be geo'd back here, just get creative on how it needs to be braced and pushed in.

Back Hallway Geomerging (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4EFei9zGS8&feature=channel)

Interlocking bridges at double box height:

Bridges are great to use as walkways yet they can create hiccups in gameplay even on the ramp side up. The best way to fix this is by interlocking the bridge into the box/wall at at double box height.

1. Place one double box bottom side up flat against one of foundry's walls. Then place another double box on it's side but this time longways(perpendicular) to the first double box. Then finally another upside down double box at the end of that positioned just like the first one. It should create the shape of the letter H.
2. Next set the two outside boxes to not spawn at start then start a new round.
3. Next place a bridge upside down on-top of the double box that is on it's side. Make sure this bridge is as centered as possible on the sides and ends.
4. Lastly, force spawn the double boxes and delete the double box the bridge was originally placed on. This will give you a perfect walking transition from one double box to another using a bridge.

DEFINITIONS:

This section will be strickly forging terms used and what they mean. I am willing to add more to the list, but this should cover the basics.

Force Spawn - This is the act to immediately force an object to respawn on the map no matter what the items respawn time is. This is done in the item list menu found by Hitting the "X" button in forge(while monitor) twice. You will bring up a menu, look for the option that says "run-time-minimum" Set this from zero to the max number placed on the map. That will force all of those items to spawn instantly. Make sure you change this option back to zero before starting a new round.

Easiest Budget Glitch(Done By Item) - Budget glitching is when you glitch a map into letting you over the Budget alotted. While it can be very helpfull to get the last few pieces of you map in place, it will also start to cause frame rate lag specially noticeable on split screen. You should also know that any map that is budget glitched will NOT be allowed in matchmaking and therefore MLG. To do this glitch, it is very simple. Simply highlight the item you wish to glitch and set the "run-time-maximum" to one count higher than the number placed on the map. Thats it! Once you get to a point where you have no money left, you will still be able to spawn every object you used this trick on till you run out of materials.

Drop Spawn - This is the act of spawning an object in the air and letting it fall to the ground. The usual use for this is power weapons on MLG maps. The reason drop spawning is used is because the timer on a normal placed weapon will not start the respawn counter untill the item is picked up. The problem competetively is each team should have a fighting chance to controll the weapon spawns. When weapons are drop spawned, the timer for the object to respawn again starts when the weapons first falls. This keeps a pretty accurate timer on power weapons.
To drop spawn a rocket launcher or sniper rifle, simply place a crate over where you want the weapon to spawn at, then place that weapon on top. Once the weapon is placed in the orientation you want it to fall in, delete the crate. This will create a drop spawned power weapon.(Save/Quiting the weapon in the air will work too) Set the weapon 4 crates up or higher to prevent someone from "dirtying" the weapon timer.(Catching the weapon before it becomes completely still for two seconds will screw with the respawn timer)

Emergency Spawns - These are spawn points that are neither placeable or removable in forge mode. They were put in place to give a map editor a place to spawn even if there are no spawn points on the map. Foundry contains eight of them as a few others do and some of them have only six or less. When messing with blocking emergency spawns, be carefull you do not create a map that cannot be spawned into. If no spawn poinst are on the map AND all emergency spawns are blocked, you will never be able to use that map file again. Some people use this information for testing purposes or other do it because of spawn issues on there map. Here is a link to a canvas with all the emergency spawns blocked: http://www.bungie.net/Online/Halo3UserContentDetails.aspx?h3fileid=15516496

Sketchup - Google has created a free 3D graphics software that will let you be creative in a 3D environment. What we have done with sketchup, is created a foundry canvas along with components to design our maps before even going into monitor mode. In the links section of this write-up, you will find all the necessary links for sketchup to get you designing your map in no time.

More to come.....

DeathstarsOG
02-02-2009, 11:47 PM
LINKS

Advanced Geomerging by Matty (http://www.forgehub.com/forum/forging-101/45944-advanced-merging-techniques.html)

Geomerging Movable Objects (http://www.forgehub.com/forum/forging-101/24221-merging-movable-objects-map-geometry.html)

Tutorial Master Index (http://www.forgehub.com/forum/halo-forge-discussion/9349-forge-tutorial-master-index.html)

Foundry Tools(By Baron) (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168793)

Faster Forging (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167963)

Crane Box Walkthrough (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167349)(Or just use Amplified's as they are the best)

MLG Standards: Weapons/Powerups (http://www.forgehub.com/forum/halo-3-mlg-discussion/48490-mlg-standards-weapons-powerups-allowed-why.html)

MLG Standards: Forge Items used and why (http://www.forgehub.com/forum/halo-3-mlg-discussion/54037-mlg-standards-items-used-why.html)

Ciabatta's Guide to Competetive Design (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=214985)

Nasty's map tips (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207223)

Quake 3 Design Thread (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196292)

Canvas Maps, DL here (http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=15270995)

SPAWN LINKS:

Naptiva's Spawn Guide (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215603)

Ender's Spawn Guide (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197566)

Ender's 8 Spawn Areas (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201233)

SKETCHUP LINKS:

Download Google Sketchup 7 (http://sketchup.google.com/download/gsu.html)

Fritzster's Foundry Sketchup Components (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205148)

Hitman's Foundry Template (With Fritzsters Components) (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=218829&highlight=Sketchup)

Sketchup Design Feedback Thread (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223523)(Post your sketchups here for community feedback)

Sketchup Database (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204540)(Post your sketchups here that are up for Adoption)

Foundry's Forge Pallet Spreadsheet (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168191)

DeathstarsOG
02-03-2009, 01:43 AM
Spawns


Setting up Spawns on your next map

Starting Spawns:
First thing you need to do is think about what type of map you have created(symmetrical, asymmetrical, 2 base, 4 base etc.) and then what gametypes you want it to run(Flag, Slayer, KOTH, Oddball, Bomb). Most map designs will end up playing slayer fairly well regaurdless of what the map was designed to play, so we can start off with that gametype.
Change the gametype to Slayer by turning into the monitor(up on D-pad) then pressing the start button and selecting "Change Gametype". Select Slayer and wait for the new round to start. Your item list should now have two more things in the Spawn category: Starting Points and Respawn areas.
The starting points are what we are going to place first. Normally starting points should define a teams side of the map. However a map designed FOR slayer will not always have defined team sides. Either case, place your first starting point where you want one team to spawn and another starting point somewhere else on the map for the other team to spawn. If your map is Symmetrical, place these Starting Points symmetrically to each other. This will ensure balance on spawn. On Asymmetrical designed maps, it may be a little bit harder to find the correct starting points to make it fair for each team. A few things you should take into account are: Power Weapons, Powerups, high ground, low ground. If you have one team spawn on high ground close to a sniper rifle and the other team spawn low ground close to a mauler you will be giving the high ground/sniper rifle team a distinct advantage over the other. Be cautious when your placing the starting locations.
Now you've found where the team is going to spawn into the game. Next, how many players is the map designed for per team? If it's designed for 1v1, then a single starting spawn per team is good. If the map is intended to play 4v4, you should have 4 Starting Spawns per team.
And lastly, you need to highlight each starting spawn and set them to there specified team. Red team would be the Defenders and Blue team is Attackers. One thing you should know is that in Slayer/KOTH/Oddball the Starting Spawns won't work correctly to mark color. Only in CTF and Bomb are defenders guarenteed to spawn on defender starting points and Attackers on Attackers starting points. Even though it is like this, make sure you color coordinate the right team spawns to the correct side of your map.
If you wish to set up the map for FFA, add 6 more Starting Spawns around the map away from eachother and highlight them. Each of these spawns should be set to 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th teams as each player in a FFA is technically on there own team.

Spawn Point Placement:
Coming soon....

Blocked Spawns:
This post will be explaining how we tested to see if blocked spawns affect the weighting of nearby spawn points and our results.

Setup:
We started in a blank foundry canvas, found center point by the garage doors and set up corner walls for each of us to put our backs against. Thhis would ensure we are killing each other perfectly dead center of the map.
First test:
We placed 1 spawn on the left side office in the corner and did the same for the right side office. After a 50 kill test we came up with a 50% spawn ratio for either side. This is an expected result but we wanted to make sure our testing stage is correct.
Second test:
We added 9 more spawn points on one side slightly closer to where I killed _TaK_ and then put a wall over them to block them from being used and tested again. Results again were 50% chance to spawn on either side telling us that blocked spawns act like there non-existent.
3rd test:
We wanted to see if the distance of the spawns placed affected the weighting, so we moved 6 spawns farther away from where I kill _TaK_ at(past the single corner spawn) and tested again. Same results came back with a 50% chance of spawning on either office unblocked spawn point. So blocked spawns, no matter where they are on the map, do NOT add to the weighting of nearby spawns in the area.
4th test:
We went back to only the two corner spawns on the map and on one side we added another spawn point stacked on top of the original one to increase the weighting to that side of the map. After testing this, we've found that 76% of the time we'd spawn on the stacked spawn side. That means in a 2/3 ratio of spawns, the spot with 2 spawns has a 76% chance that it will be used over the single spawn point.
5th test:
To find out how much more likely it would relate over to The Pit, Narrows or Lockdown, we did a test with one office having 4 spawn points stacked in the same corner and the other office had 5 stacked. Test results from this showed a 66% chance you will spawn on the side with 5 spawns and a 33% chance to spawn on the side with 4 spawns.
Conclusion:
What we have come to find is blocked spawns DO NOT affect the weighting of nearby spawns, and after testing results of weighting, 5 spawns in one area will be used 66% over an area with 4 spawns being used 33% of the time.


DO NOT POST WHORE IN THIS THREAD.
Please only post if you have a question or an addition to this write-up.

-NaStY-
02-03-2009, 04:22 AM
Tests 4 and 5 don't sound statistically significant. If the test was set up as described, there should have been no influences on any of the un-blocked spawns. The death sphere of influence was way too small to encapsulate the office spawns. If there was a discrepancy in spawning on one side or the other, it's because it was randomly picking between 3 equally weighted spawns, 2 of which were on the same side. It gave 33% weighting to each spawn, and 66% of the time the spawn chosen was on the side with two spawn points. That number 76% sounds like you got unlucky. And, if there were 9 spawns in test 5, even 100 tests wouldn't have been a good sample size, which is why you got some wacky numbers. In further testing you would have simply seen 4/9 and 5/9 probabilities of spawning on either side. I can't tell if this is what you were saying in your conclusion, but if it was then it seems it wasn't a question in the first place.


Everything else looks awesome. If you want I can write up a short explanation of double-bracing with double box ramps.

yourself.
02-03-2009, 07:52 AM
I'm still perfecting my double box height (double box) ramp teardrop algorithm.
I'll be sure to post it here once I get it.

DeathstarsOG
02-03-2009, 04:22 PM
Tests 4 and 5 don't sound statistically significant. If the test was set up as described, there should have been no influences on any of the un-blocked spawns. The death sphere of influence was way too small to encapsulate the office spawns. If there was a discrepancy in spawning on one side or the other, it's because it was randomly picking between 3 equally weighted spawns, 2 of which were on the same side. It gave 33% weighting to each spawn, and 66% of the time the spawn chosen was on the side with two spawn points. That number 76% sounds like you got unlucky. And, if there were 9 spawns in test 5, even 100 tests wouldn't have been a good sample size, which is why you got some wacky numbers. In further testing you would have simply seen 4/9 and 5/9 probabilities of spawning on either side. I can't tell if this is what you were saying in your conclusion, but if it was then it seems it wasn't a question in the first place.


Everything else looks awesome. If you want I can write up a short explanation of double-bracing with double box ramps.
Sorry, it might seam a little confusing, those tests were put together to test weighting of spawns without any blocked spawns on the map. They were just additional testing performed because of the blocked spawns we found on MLG maps. Also our test results were not very random at all. We did multiple tests which all came up very consistent. We also thought that when we had 2 spawns on one side, and one spawn on the other that we would end up with a 2/3 spawn ratio. That just didn't happen. I'm willing to do more tests but our results were very consistent. It seamed that more spawns in one area not only affected the ratio that you would spawn there more often but that it would almost prefer you to spawn there.

As far as the double box ramps, go for it. Yourself and I are working on a method to teardrop the double box ramps in one move like my double wall ramps.

yourself.
02-03-2009, 04:30 PM
As far as the double box ramps, go for it. Yourself and I are working on a method to teardrop the double box ramps in one move like my double wall ramps.


when I see you on, I'll throw some ideas around with you. Maybe we can find an extremely good way to do it.

The_Raging_Beast
02-03-2009, 05:35 PM
We need to get some vids of more advanced geo's and harder stuff for the newer forgers, and some better forgers that still don't know stuff. I really need a vid of a double box ramp because that's the one thing I can't do. Kon Artist does them really good...

i'd make some vids but i don't have a capture card :-(
i'll get back to you Deathstars, btw another good thread, this should be stickied, but only if it's going to be updated a lot.

b0b43
02-03-2009, 11:41 PM
Yes, a double box ramp tutorial would be much appreciated. I would also like a tutorial on how to block off part of the back hallway on foundry with a double box or fence box. An example of this would be the double box that blocks off most of the back hallway on Omni that creates a little U-shape around the back. I myself would greatly appreciate both of these tutorials, as well as many other forgers.

I also think that Ender's Spawn Guide (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197566) and his 8 Spawn Area Reccomedation (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201233) thread should be added, since you are including spawns in here as well.

Oh and why isn't this stickied yet?

DeathstarsOG
02-04-2009, 08:35 AM
Yes, a double box ramp tutorial would be much appreciated. I would also like a tutorial on how to block off part of the back hallway on foundry with a double box or fence box. An example of this would be the double box that blocks off most of the back hallway on Omni that creates a little U-shape around the back. I myself would greatly appreciate both of these tutorials, as well as many other forgers.

I also think that Ender's Spawn Guide (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=197566) and his 8 Spawn Area Reccomedation (http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201233) thread should be added, since you are including spawns in here as well.

Oh and why isn't this stickied yet?
These two links were added, along with a tutorial AND video on how to geo-merge into the back hallway of foundry. I am still updating this thread with more and more information. Just added alot more forge tricks and links today.

_TaK_
02-04-2009, 02:15 PM
By the looks of things you are going to need more reerved posts, and also should keep some for things when Sandbox comes out, you should ask people who have had their questions or what not to delete their posts so you can reserve some more.

matt5truth
02-06-2009, 12:29 PM
this helped me a lot thanks

The_Raging_Beast
02-11-2009, 10:12 PM
This needs to be stickied to replace Ciabattas' map design thread and the Glitches/ tricks thread by Mephisto, because this covers all of it.

yourself.
02-11-2009, 10:30 PM
This needs to be stickied to replace Ciabattas' map design thread and the Glitches/ tricks thread by Mephisto, because this covers all of it.

I don't see how this could possibly replace Ciabattas thread.

The_Raging_Beast
02-12-2009, 12:54 PM
Yourself, look at OP I'm pretty sure he has links to all the helpful threads, even a few from Forgehub.

yourself.
02-12-2009, 12:56 PM
Stickied thread on design > Link to thread on design inside of a how to forge thread

The_Raging_Beast
02-12-2009, 01:11 PM
Idk my bff jill

BadBall3r
02-13-2009, 10:24 PM
Oh wow, this does look useful. Thanks for this =]

XelaD2
02-14-2009, 10:45 PM
Thank you a lot bro, with the release of Sandbox coming up I really want to improve my forging.