Did he go to far?!?!

[c-low18]

So I saw that sometime in the 80's a man in a subway was getting heldup by three teenagers and I believe that one of the pulled a screwdriver on him....the man proceeded to shoot and kill all three of the teenagers....

at first I was like hell ya good him but I began to think....was that alittle to much....maybe he could have shot them to where they were just injured....I mean there in no way for me to judge him cause he was in a tight situation but everyone makes mistakes....did these kids need to be KILLED?

I just wanna know what yall think....I really havnt figured out what I think just seeing....if anyone is old enough to remember this let me know if my facts are wrong



p.s. the courts dropped the case

[Gambolpuddy]

i would not penalize that man because self defense is legally a very broad term. it also depends on whether the man's shots were clearly intended to kill; if they agressors were all capped in the face, then yeah he should be charged. but if they bled to death from more minor wounds then the man can still play the self-defense card.

[MalaysianMafia]

i woulda done the same... those kids were obviously a waste of life...

[D13U]

It's pretty obvious the courts would not charge him because, as Gambol said, self-defense is very broad. But it really does depend on the circumstances. If the bullets were all in the heads, he was obviously in the wrong. If the bullets were all in the chest-ish area, it's pretty probable that he was just aiming at the largest target hoping to immobilize them, I know that's what I would do.

So basically, it's pretty much impossible to answer this question without context.

i woulda done the same... those kids were obviously a waste of life...
Though I don't particularly approve of this behavior, it could have been that the kids were extremely poor. If somebody wants to live, and doesn't have the resources needed to do so, there's a good chance they will do whatever it takes to obtain those resources. It's a pretty good chance that they weren't "wastes of life" as you so eloquently put it.

[jakekessler]

i woulda done the same... those kids were obviously a waste of life...

amen to that

[Slash22]

Just flash the gat and they'll bounce.

[c-low18]

Just flash the gat and they'll bounce.



ya thats what I was thinking too....I mean the presence of a gun would scare off 99% of people....but I dunno....

[D13U]

But dude, he had a screwdriver. And like I stated before, if they love life dearly and don't have the resources to maintain that life, they will try to obtain those resources. If they fail at doing so, their only next option is death. They failed at acheiving their first choice, so they were given their second.

[Slash22]

But dude, he had a screwdriver. And like I stated before, if they love life dearly and don't have the resources to maintain that life, they will try to obtain those resources. If they fail at doing so, their only next option is death. They failed at acheiving their first choice, so they were given their second.

I'm assuming this is sarcasm. At most, all the guy had to do was shoot one of them in the waist, and they will run for their lives. A couple of teenagers, one with a screwdriver, doesn't pose a threat to someone with a loaded handgun.

[D13U]

Haha, yeah, it was sarcasm. But like I said in my first post.. it's impossible to answer the question without context. He may have pulled out the gun, and in the heat of the moment one of them lashed out hoping to take him down before he took a shot... only they didn't. Then the other two could have seen he just shot their friend, so they lashed out in anger, being shot accordingly.

On the other hand, when he pulled out the gun they may have run and he shot them anyway. Just as my "Where the shots were placed" argument, context is everything.

This really can't even form a decent argument, there's simply not enough context to do so.

[GEPH2K]

[font=removed because it looked funny]This really can't even form a decent argument, there's simply not enough context to do so.
Taken from http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Goetz.html
On December 22, 1984 at one o'clock in the afternoon Bernhard Hugo Goetz entered the downtown IRT train at the 14th Street station in Manhattan with a loaded five shot 38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver concealed in his belt holster.[2] There [Page 1262] were some twenty to twenty-five people in the car, including a group of four young black men: Troy Canty, Barry Allen, James Ramseur, and Darrell Cabey. Goetz sat down across from the youths. Moments later Canty and Allen, followed by Ramseur and Cabey rose and surrounded Goetz. Canty then demanded five dollars. Goetz, feigning a lack of understanding asked Canty to repeat his request. Canty responded, "Give me your money."[3] Goetz stood up, and while supporting himself by one of the poles, reached inside his jacket, drew his revolver, and fired in rapid succession from left to right at Canty, Allen, Ramseur, and twice at Cabey. All, save one of the shots at Cabey, hit their mark. The conductor, who was in another car, hearing the shots, pulled the emergency brake cord. As the train screeched to a halt mid-station, Goetz reassured two female passengers cowering on the floor, and after brushing past the inquisitive con- [Page 1263] ductor, climbed down onto the tracks through the opening between two cars and disappeared. So began the saga of New York's "Subway Vigilante."[4]

By the way, methinks c-low saw this on I Love The 80s 3D.

[IcedBlueII]

One cannot use more force than is necessary. It's really hard to believe they didn't get him on manslaughter. Then again, I bet if 3 of my white, middle class friends had jumped him and gotten shot, he'd be looking at 15 years at least.

[mtrip]

Dammit Gep you're too quick.

Here's the context:

Wikipedia:

The incident

On the afternoon of December 22, 1984, four African American youths, Barry Allen, Troy Canty, James Ramseur, and Darrell Cabey, boarded the train on a mission to rob video game machines in Manhattan. Minutes later, Goetz entered the same train and sat down across from the four youths. A few minutes later, two of the youths asked Goetz for five dollars. Goetz, pretending not to hear them, asked them to repeat themselves. Canty responded, "Give me five dollars."

The youths responded to Goetz's refusal by allegedly threatening him with sharpened screwdrivers. Goetz had a gun, a .38 five-shot Smith & Wesson, He pulled it out and quickly fired four shots. The first hit Canty in the chest; the second shot struck Allen in his back; the third shot went through Rasmseur's arm and lodged itself in his left side; the fourth shot was fired at Cabey, but missed. After surveying the scene following the initial four shots Goetz saw Cabey sitting on a bench, unhurt, trying to pretend he wasn't involved in the incident. Goetz approached him and fired a shot which severed his spinal cord. All four survived, though Cabey was paralyzed for life.

After checking whether two nearby women were injured -- they were not -- Goetz refused to hand over his gun to the conductor and left the emergency-halted train. After Goetz left the subway, he rented a car, and drove to Vermont. He almost died in Vermont when he got lost in the woods where he went to bury the gun. He turned himself in to New York City police nine days later.

[mtrip]

By the way, I'm pretty sure he ended up doing time for this. Personally, I think they had it coming. Stabbing some guy with a screwdriver for $5 is reason enough to get shot as far as I'm concerned.

[IcedBlueII]

Goetz approached him and fired a shot which severed his spinal cord. All four survived, though Cabey was paralyzed for life.



In that case, it should have been attempted murder, or assault with a deadly weapon. If those kids are white, he's still in jail.

[mtrip]

Alright, the last shot was unwarranted, but the initial volley was justified. It was him or them, and they were the instigators. At that distance, they could stab him in the throat before he even realized what was happening, so he had no choice but to act.

And yeah, if someone shot 4 white teens like that he'd get the death penalty.

[c-low18]

ya I saw it on I love the 80's....and I guess I was wrong about them getting killed....glad yall cleared that up....and as far as I know he didnt do any time at all....

[mtrip]

Wikipedia:

Criminal trial

The Goetz trial was indeed a significant news event. Goetz confessed to the shooting. Although the law stated that vigilantism was not a valid defense, the jury acquitted Goetz of the shooting but found him guilty of illegal weapons possession. He was sentenced to one year in prison, and served eight months. Racial issues were proved to be minor. One of the witnesses, an African American woman named Andrea Reid, testified that those "punks" got "what they deserve". James Ramseur's mother even said she wasn't sorry about what happened to her son.

All of the youths have committed serious crimes since the original incident, except for Cabey, who remains paralyzed in a wheelchair. James Ramseur was convicted of raping, sodomizing, beating and robbing a pregnant nineteen year old.
[edit]

Civil trial

Darrell Cabey filed a civil suit against Goetz in 1985. In 1996, a jury found that Goetz had acted recklessly and deliberately inflicted emotional distress on Cabey. The jury awarded Cabey $43 million. Goetz subsequently filed bankruptcy.

At the civil trial, newspaper columnist Jimmy Breslin testified Cabey had told him that he and the others had intended to rob Goetz because "he looked like easy bait."

[IcedBlueII]

That's a great way to decide someone's future. "Those punks got what they deserve." It's the best thing and the worst thing about our legal system I guess. Jury of the peers, even if the peers have no clue about the law.

[Kyrene]

So I saw that sometime in the 80's a man in a subway was getting heldup by three teenagers and I believe that one of the pulled a screwdriver on him....the man proceeded to shoot and kill all three of the teenagers....

at first I was like hell ya good him but I began to think....was that alittle to much....maybe he could have shot them to where they were just injured....I mean there in no way for me to judge him cause he was in a tight situation but everyone makes mistakes....did these kids need to be KILLED?

I just wanna know what yall think....I really havnt figured out what I think just seeing....if anyone is old enough to remember this let me know if my facts are wrong



p.s. the courts dropped the case

So if someone gets on a train next to you and pulls out a ice pick are you just going to sit there while he stabs you? When ones life is threatened by another the only obvious reprocussion is to ensure that such a person is not capable of harming you.

If it takes a bullet to make that happen, then God rest the foolish soul of the person that would attack another.

[IcedBlueII]

So if someone gets on a train next to you and pulls out a ice pick are you just going to sit there while he stabs you? When ones life is threatened by another the only obvious reprocussion is to ensure that such a person is not capable of harming you.

If it takes a bullet to make that happen, then God rest the foolish soul of the person that would attack another.

It wasn't that he shot them; it's that only one was armed, and one was sitting on a bench acting like he wasn't involved...and the fact that they were black.

[Kyrene]

It wasn't that he shot them; it's that only one was armed, and one was sitting on a bench acting like he wasn't involved...and the fact that they were black.

I have three brothers. If the four of us surround you on a train and demand money in a scenario that would suggest you are about to get stabbed would it matter if i was white, black, or that i am about to stab you?

[IcedBlueII]

You are a white jury member, a white man went above and beyond the bounds of self defense and shot four black youths. Do you vote him guilty?

[TitoThePunisher]

I heard a story on the news about a man who had worked all day and got off work and came home at about 2:00 a.m.

Someone had called the police on him.. I don't remember why exactly.

So.. anyways, the police knock on the door, he's asleep so he doesn't asnwer. The police kick in the door and come barging in. He has a handgun on his nightstand and he reaches for it (it would have done the same if someone had broken into my house in the middle of the night).

The police shot and killed him.. they ended up finding something like 1/8 oz. of weed on the guy.

It's a pretty sad story :(.

[Shabutie]

All of the youths have committed serious crimes since the original incident, except for Cabey, who remains paralyzed in a wheelchair. James Ramseur was convicted of raping, sodomizing, beating and robbing a pregnant nineteen year old.
In that case, I wish the guy woulda popped all four in the head. I don't quite get how the 4 kids didn't serve time even though they were shot.

[Pyroteq]

All of the youths have committed serious crimes since the original incident, except for Cabey, who remains paralyzed in a wheelchair. James Ramseur was convicted of raping, sodomizing, beating and robbing a pregnant nineteen year old.


They were all obviously a waste of life anyway.

[KURTZ___mlg_]

he can say self defense all he wants but why was he on the subway with a gun. he will prolly get in more trouble for that.

[ryaneverk2]

he can say self defense all he wants but why was he on the subway with a gun. he will prolly get in more trouble for that.
Is that a serious question? People carry guns for self defense. Obviously he had to use his.

Would you prefer to be defenseless when someone attacks you? Wait I know, when someone is trying to attack me I'll just whip out my cell phone and dial 911, and wait 5+ minutes for the police to show. Even though they have no obligation to protect me from criminals, and will take that much time to get there if I'm lucky as hell..... it's way better than learning to use and carrying an evil gun, and protecting myself!

[ryaneverk2]

You are a white jury member, a white man went above and beyond the bounds of self defense and shot four black youths. Do you vote him guilty?
What does skin color have to do with it? Seems like the people always claiming that someone is racist are the very ones that ALWAYS bring color into the situation, as if it matters.

[Overswarm]

I remember this story...

The real kicker is that the teens were black, and the subway guy that shot them repeatedly referred to them in a racist manner we are all familiar with.

The court was torn. It was self defense, but he obviously WANTED to shoot them in the first place. He said that himself. "I saw them ******* walking around actin like they were going to cause trouble, so I was ready" and other such things made me raise an eyebrow.

[ryaneverk2]

I remember this story...

The real kicker is that the teens were black, and the subway guy that shot them repeatedly referred to them in a racist manner we are all familiar with.

The court was torn. It was self defense, but he obviously WANTED to shoot them in the first place. He said that himself. "I saw them ******* walking around actin like they were going to cause trouble, so I was ready" and other such things made me raise an eyebrow.

Yikes, what a fool to say all that when he's having to defend that he acted in self defense. Really was a stupid thing to say.

[Surt]

If someone tried to shank me with a screw driver I would have freakin' shot them too. If they died, oh well, maybe they shouldn't have threatened me.

[Bordillo]

T S K -sounds like a pro

[XZONE]

if they were teenagers they would have run away after you would take out your gun... but if they were like still atacking you then i'd shoot them as fast as possible. if they just have like bullet injuries at random places it's self defense. but if they all have like multiple injuries or all in the face then the old man should go to prison.

[Pendergast]

T S K -sounds like a pro

Actually, the guy in question was obviously a complete nerd. He was essentially a turd.

[IcedBlueII]

What does skin color have to do with it? Seems like the people always claiming that someone is racist are the very ones that ALWAYS bring color into the situation, as if it matters.

If you look at crime statistics, you will see that race has everything in the world to do with any crime committed. If I commit a crime, and a black guy commits the same crime, he is getting more time, plain and simple. If a white man shoots a bunch of blacks, he gets out free; if he was black and the guys causing trouble were white, he would still be in jail.